ESDU rules Options

[slotdragster]

Since Charles has asked me about my and Alex Mahls views on any rule changes - here is 1. Alex´opinion (he has asked me to post this for him) and then my own:

- Alex would like to keep the rules as they are; it is already complex enough and there is no real need to compare us to other countries, the US rules have enough problems which we don't need.
Adding classes is not going to work - so far, none of the two ESDU championships have been on time/schedule, so if we can't finish our existing classes before 3:00 in the morning, it won't get any better with even one additional class. And it is no fun to race for 15 hours straight.

- Kescha: I totally oppose changing any weight minimums, even though I could shed 5g off my cars. The Lexan bodies already have a slight advantage over the hardbody cars, especially if the track is not perfect (big advantage). Less weight in the chassis would make any car with a heavier (kit or resin) body more unstable, and force all of the hardbody racers to either use a 25g body or change over to Lexan and Styrene - where's the variety? Some Lexan cars already look like doorstops, we should give the hardbody fraction some freedom of choice, as well (or keep it the way it is, at least).

Replacing Gp20 with a 90g min. would mean that all who have hardbody cars in that class would have to change them over to Gp12 or SS or PS, which would also mean that most of us would have to retire some cars (I can't race 4 cars in Gp12, can I?). Or change over to Lexan - thank you very much!

Now adding a 90g Gp20 class and/or MM/PS wouldn't bother me as much, but I see the same problem, as Alex: Does anyone want to race for 15 hours and until 3 or 4 or 5 AM each day? Or is there somebody who can stop all the BS and discussions and organize a race with 30-50 participants well enough to be finished before normal dinner time? I would suggest to solve the time problem, before we add anything, and I do actually believe that it is (in theory) possible to add one class (and replace the "theme" class with another).


Regards,
Alex Mahl and Kescha Platonow

[Osku]

Hello fellow ESDU officials,

Here's my wiew about the rule changes / issues... and I stress the words "my wiew".

During the meeting there was no talk of adding classes, just changing G20 to 90grams, skipping theme class and taking MM/PS in as an official class. We also discussed about letting styrene & lexan Altereds and Dragsters in Super Sixteen.

About the schedule problems, you have to remember there has been only two EC's so far. Both have been learning experiences.
I think everyone who have attended those two EC's know exactly why the schedules didn't hold. In my opinion, what we need to do is communicate more and figure out a way how to handle any issues during the racedays.
Personally, if I travel 2500 km just to race toycars, it's all the same to me whether the racedays are 12, 15 or 18 hours...

About changing G20 to 90 grams, I'm all for it. Once again, these are just my reasons.
There is a significant gap between the ET's in G20 and Open/G7 and no class in between them. I would like to have a class that makes that gap a bit narrower.
I'm one of those guys who want to go fast but will probably never have the budget or the testing possibilities to race Open/G7 competitively (meaning two fast cars). That's just a cold fact, so please don't start any "with a little bit of luck you can..."-stories here, being competitive is a different thing than being lucky.
For me 90gram G20 would be the fast and still very much affordable class.

Changing min. weight to 120 grams in PS, SS and G12, I'm for that too.
First, I'd like to compare my ET's to ones in US. On a good track, not on some Finnish potato field.
Second, selecting the right body is a huge part of building a racecar, at least for me it is. I have a lot of bodies in my stash that won't ever be anything but Bracket cars, because of weight, size or shape of the body.
The level of racing in Europe is already so high, that for an average builder choosing a big or heavy body is generally a bad idea. That is if you want to be competitive...
I was a bit surprised about Kescha's "where's the variety?"-question. There is a plenty of light kit bodies available and also plenty of lexan/styrene bodies where to choose. And if you cannot find a light version of a body you absolutely need to use, there's always Dremel. A lot of work but in our small racing world there is no such thing as a free ride anymore.

Regards,
Osku
(a.k.a. FF )

Btw, some lexan bodies look like doorstops because it's totally legal according to our non-existing bodyrules. It's only natural that people use every chance to cut a few thousands of their ET's.

[Steve D]

Hi, I think we need to publish exactly what we are proposing here, in black and white. Word of mouth can be mis-construed/understood.

In my view, the overall 120g rule can only be good news, making the cars a little quicker (hopefully).

I agree with Osku, regarding the schedules, there have been issues at both ESDU races, and these can get out of hand, if not handled correctly. In my view tighter control is the way forward, especially regarding scuiteneering and race control. Technical issues are obviously out of our control, in most cases, so cannot really be planned for.

Dropping theme class, I agree with.

Like TF, I probably won't compete in the MM/PS class, but it seems to tie in with the change to the G20 class. If G20 is 90g and MM/PS is 120g, then you have the opportunity to choose, or do both.

As I said previously, we need to publish here the exact proposal and then take a vote.

Cheers

Steve D

[vfr750]

Can you point me to where I can find Drag Racing rules please? It looks like we might be having a track at Wellinbugger.

Cheers

John

[Mahill]

Hi John

Sure, here's what we have so far:

ESDU rules

Rules are not restrictive at all, basic idea is that each club-raceway has local rule which fit the members' tastes, some are into all out speed, some are from a static model background, some follow modern 1/1 drags, some the nostalgia 60s era ...

For European races all these groups can compete with their existing cars with minimal changes like adding or removing some weight.

Cheers
Fred

[Osku]

As I said previously, we need to publish here the exact proposal and then take a vote.

Agree, we are actually working on that.
I will volunteer myself to be the co-ordinator on this voting if that's OK with you guys ?

Cheers,
Osku

[Mahill]

Hello gentlemen

Not quite surprised to see racers who were not there start a war against proposals from the ESDU meeting at Nuits St George, still the hobby needs go on moving forward, that's life.

Both ESDUs so far were way behind schedule mostly because of ladder software issues, in Malta we had to change to another slowlier system, in Nuits the 16 car ladder that we finaly had to use for some classes worked very well but the 32 car had a flaw which made it unfair in the end, (my fault, should have checked more) so George, Ramon & Marc ended up doing a lot of things manual.

The most important decision ESDU needs to take is to try different type race softwares, chose one which will be "official" and would be used for future big races in Europe
This way a lot of racers/organisers will be used to working with the system so not only the locals.

George Louis is working on a 4/8/16/32 version of his ladder that will be used at my track for our French Nats and given to test to interested tracks, guess other softwares will be tested this winter and ESDU can make a choice.

About various proposals:

/ I'm in favor of the 120g limit, most adequate hardbodies will still have some ballast at that weight

/ The 90g lexan Gr20 will change our lives, speed will be so much higher than that of our 125g 20s that the aero package will be important again, for reasonable money as Osku pointed
Should end up looking a lot like the A/FC class in the US, doorsteps indeed but fine paintjobs are allowed...

/ I'm in favor of adopting MM/PS as the permanent Theme class, even though small at 12 cars it's been a beautifull class to watch and enter

/ Last I like the change to get dragsters/altereds rules in SS simplier and allow styrene & lexan if car is at weight.


Last wished to point a possible way to hold on schedules in the future:

-Think we all want to stick to the best of 3 system, more runs & fairer
-Same thing for the 32 cars fields, make most cars run the ladder so need to stick to them.
-Number of classes we now have shouldn't change much in the foreseeable future

-Only major point we could change to speed up races at a 50 or over entrants future ESDU would be to allow only one car per driver, for all classes or only the more popular classes.
A lot of the racers with smaller fleets are complaining the 2 cars possibility takes spots in the field (or spots further down the field) out of them.

Cheers
Fred

[Mahill]

Agree, we are actually working on that.
I will volunteer myself to be the co-ordinator on this voting if that's OK with you guys ?

Cheers,
Osku

Certainly is, dear

Cheers
Fred

[slotmedic]

Hello everybody, I am so glad that after all the time spent on slot cars these last months including the four days in France, some, ESDU delegates still have energy to move ahead and start working on new ideas for the future. This is the best time as the wonderfull experiance at Fred is still fresh.

At the moment Vince is away on Holiday , he went to meet his uncle Mr. Mc Donald in the Highlands in Scotland, so I need to wait his return to discuss future changes . we shall give our view early next week.

In the mean time a agree that osku shall co-ordinate the voteing.

Regards
Charles

[slotmedic]

Quote :

Some Lexan cars already look like doorstop


Oh BTW our door stop car's were top qualifiers and made best ET's in France. and they are legal .
I thought drag raceing is all about the fastest cars in a 1/4 mile. It's No show and shine model car exhibation.

Bye
Charles

[Markus Reichl]

Some Lexan cars already look like doorstop

Oh BTW our door stop car's were top qualifiers and made best ET's in France. and they are legal .
I thought drag raceing is all about the fastest cars in a 1/4 mile. It's No show and shine model car exhibation.

To my mind both opinions are absolutely correct de lege lata.

For me, being new to the drag hobby (I race both modelcars and wingcars, which combines both above mentioned aspects), this discussion raises new questions. And I hope that I may be allowed to contribute although not being an ESDU-member. Also would like to emphasise that I do not want to open a war ...

The wingcar RACER in me wants faaaast cars and Opens and a lighter G20 class (maybe body style rule with max. ProMod proportions or prescribed min. body height so that not all classes look the bloody same) will well serve this need for speed (TopGun is buried, right?)
The MODELCAR driver in me likes hardplastic cars like Nostalgia SS or G12 Gassers with elaborate scale motors and stuff.
My cars for this year´s Winternationals express these two opinions with one hardbody and one styrene (may even become lexan) car per G12 and G20.

So my proposal would be to make either G12 or SS a hardbody class. I´d prefer SS with all the Nostalgia Cars around.

The no whining allowed about doorsteps any more.

My 2 cents.

Cheers, and hope to meet a few of you very soon,

Markus

[Steve D]

Hi Markus, if I remember rightly it is proposed that the MM/PS class will be hard body only.

Cheers

Steve D

Reason for edit: spiellingg

[Markus Reichl]

Right, Steve, but I was talking about ANOTHER, slower class.

With all the wonderful hardbody cars which you British guys have there I thought this would be an issue of yours as well ...

Cheers,

Markus

[Steve D]

Hi Markus, I've read your post again and now understand. Sorry I jumped the gun with my first reply.

Anyone got some thoughts on Markus's idea?

Cheers

Steve D

[Mahill]

Hi Markus

Sorry was out of town yesterday, your suggestions are certainly welcome, ESDU officers end up voting but all racers with any experience must explain the way they see the hobby

Topgun is not active in Europe at the moment, such cars end up entering AA/FC with a big disadvantage, the new generation of Neo magnets Top Guns have incredible torque so much closer in potential to a cobalt G7, we've seen some new classes in the US trying to use this torque to power a hardbody but aero stability issues seem to have killed the efforts so far.

Used a Koford Neo Top Gun in the European "Fastest Vette" when it was in Nuits St George in it's quest for the highest MPH, ended up working but aero was a nightmare.

Agree with you on the "Dr Jeckhill & Mr Hyde" situation inside a lot of us, doing both all-out speed and careful modeling seriously is the way to go on a low power 1000ft track, on faster tracks Bracket & Indexes look like a more natural home for real top class modelling rather than a heads-up class the way I see it though.

I don't have a problem having SS or Gr12 strictly hardbody at some point in the future, the growing number of styrene bodies around would not be helping but why not ?

Cheers
Fred