[slowracer]

Following another sucessful Vintage HO gathering at Yelling, the principals of SCHORC, ECHO and MBRHO have decided on promoting a 4 event series for 2011/12.

The meetings will be an all day event, held for the present, at Yelling Village Hall, Yelling, South Cambs.

The dates are to be decided but anticipated to be: the first one on Wednesday 28th December, the second on a Sunday during May the third on a Sunday during late July early August (pancake cup event) and the last one on a Sunday during November.

Please note these dates will not clash with any HO National race meeting.

The meetings will consist of Heats and Finals for the following 2 Chassis/Body classes, Morning class : Aurora Magnatraction (CanAm/Sports and Saloon): Afternoon class : Aurora G+ o/w (F1/indy).

The full Chassis spec. and limited modifications allowed, will be available by email attachment, shortly from myself.

These events for this year at least will not be considered a championship but will include in the July/August event 'The Pancake Cup' and 'The G+ Trophy'.

Would all interested parties please register their interest here on the forum

 

[montoya1]

No JL or AW chassis then?

I am up for the Pancake cup, so long as it is not in July, there is already the AFX 6hr and a national that month. I usually have a month of from racing, next year that will be May.

 

[slowracer]

QUOTE (montoya1 @ 17 Oct 2011, 12:39) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>No JL or AW chassis then?

I am up for the Pancake cup, so long as it is not in July, there is already the AFX 6hr and a national that month. I usually have a month of from racing, next year that will be May.

No JL or AW chassis, but the mechanicals may be used in the Magnatraction chassis. The rules have yet to be fully decided when this has been done they will be circulated to all the interested parties!

The Pancake July/August date will be similar to this years date!

 

[montoya1]

So people will have to take the guts out of a JL and AW and place them in a Magna chassis, having first obtained one of those, rather than just use the whole car? Weird, what is the thinking behind that? Does somebody have some magnatractions to sell maybe?

Does this mix and match malarky extend to magnets?

 

[slowracer]

QUOTE (montoya1 @ 17 Oct 2011, 15:53) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>So people will have to take the guts out of a JL and AW and place them in a Magna chassis, having first obtained one of those, rather than just use the whole car? Weird, what is the thinking behind that? Does somebody have some magnatractions to sell maybe?

Does this mix and match malarky extend to magnets?

Just in case you missed it in the previous post

The rules have yet to be fully decided when this has been done they will be circulated to all the interested parties!

This is the final word on the matter for now!!

 

[woodcote]

The series is an exciting development

I had thought the rules for 2012 were already set (Julian's post here).

However, if they are back on the drawing board, can I suggest (just a suggestion) that you re-look at what I posted back in the summer, about the rules we were likely to run on the south coast.

Again, just a suggestion, but it might make sense to come up with some simple common rules to run the Magnatraction / X-Traction chassis in the UK. That may, of course, mean a change to our rules too, but I do think the JL and AW chassis needs to be in there.

But it's only a suggestion, so go easy on the big font shouty stuff

Also, if you're ever tempted to try T-jet racing (I remember Julian mentioning the possibility), we'll be doing some of that too - and developing some of the ECHORR rules for their JL-spec and Super-Stock classes.

 

[slowracer]

Julian only set those rules only for the 'Pancake Cup' meeting, thinking that I was not interested in it for 2012, since then things have moved on and we have had another meeting and made the suggestions based on our experiences before and now.

I did see your suggested rules and thought that they were a little long winded and far too complex, the rules that we hope to be running to are to be based on our developments and see what actually works and indeed much simpler to work out, without falling foul with ambiguity.

With regards to JL and AW, they don't fit, in my opinion, to the spirit of our title 'VINTAGE HO RACING SERIES' hence the ommision of said chassis. unless we call it 'RETRO VINTAGE and VINTAGE HO RACING SERIES'.

I only have one AW chassis and it was carp, put the mechanicals into a Aurora chassis and a different beast is born, one that handles!! JL I have no experience of.

After discussion on Sunday I don't think T-Jet Racing is on the agenda.

Shouty stuff Hmm, the question post was not necessary either, as it had been covered in my post so why ask it!!

 

[asjwood]

I'm up for this!

 

[woodcote]

Fair enough.

I'm not sure I agree on the complexity. There are 15 short sentences covering each element of the car. Pretty standard really. If someone is to build a car and travel a few hundred miles, it does help to know that you've got all bases covered. Isn't that's what build rules are for?

I've been running X-Tractions for a few years and like them. I've had one [email protected] chassis out of six or seven. Yes, AW have their QC issues, but they can be over-exaggerated. The JL is exactly the same chassis as the AW.

Good luck with it

 

[slowracer]

For anyone travelling the rules will be quite clear beforehand.

I will read you rules again later, and give you my opinions/ideas more in depth.

 

[montoya1]

QUOTE (slowracer @ 17 Oct 2011, 16:59) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Just in case you missed it in the previous post

The rules have yet to be fully decided when this has been done they will be circulated to all the interested parties!

This is the final word on the matter for now!!

It is implicit in the action of posting in a forum that you are going to get questions and suggestions. I didn't not resort to bold and larger fonts when you started those (now) infamous threads some time back. If you want to promote this series in the right way, it stands to reason you need to be as open and as forthcoming as possible to anyone who takes the time to chime in.

If there is a rationale behind not allowing the modern replica stuff, then as one of the 'principles' (a bit lofty) you should be willing to explain that without rancor. You either support the idea, or know enough of the thinking of the other two principles to be able to paraphrase it, which will do for now. Clearly, it has nothing to do with the Magna chassis being old, as you state that the parts from the modern chassis are allowed. If it is only vintage if it's old then how do you square that one away? If the quality control of the new stuff is poor then where is the harm in allowing it?

It is the case that many of the high-profile pancake races in the US do not allow the new chassis either. However they do allow the Dash magnets that I know you are against, and fantastic quality after-market parts such as gears and axles. If the quality and consistency route is your aim, all those parts are things that you should be looking at, IMHO. Many suspect that the chassis would not have to be original either, if it were not for the fact that the AW TJ500 is the 'wrong' chassis (the Tuffones) for their needs. Dash was working on a 'proper' TJ chassis before he packed in, and there is little doubt it would of been adopted and then whole cars would of consisted of new versions of old designs.

For me the attractions of this kind of racing are:

They work really well on smaller tracks, because of the slower speeds.
They allow the running of some of the older bodies. Some of them look the nuts (and AW have redone several).
They handle in a totally different way to inline magnet cars, can be slid etc

All of those can be achieved without forcing people to use the old chassis. Two of the three can be achieved by fitting lumps of brass to cars we all already have. I already know my G3, with $12 worth of brass pieces, is a hoot to drive at 15V or 18V, for example.

The one upside of the older chassis is that if you have some to sell you are literally in the pound seats. Sadly I had some, and sent them to a better home years ago. Other than that reason, I don't get it...

I would take plenty of time studying the stuff Andy talks of in your shoes. The Americans have decades more experience running races for these sorts of cars, and it would be badly remiss not to at the very least have a decent working knowledge of their methods, past and present.

 

[Julian_Boolean]

You could always start your own vintage HO race series if you don't like ours, the idea is to have fun racing old HO slot cars, not to have a UK Fray, from what I've seen on the internet the majority of US Pancake racers want something different to what we want.

Also to intimate that Tony is only involved because he wants to shift stock is insulting.

We have had two meetings which were run to a successful formula and we will be sticking with that, I don't see any point in racing T-Jets, for them to look nice they have to have the original skinny wheels and then they don't handle, not that they're brilliant with the big wheels. Original T-Jets were hardly popular in the UK, I'd rather race Matchbox Powertrack cars for a 3rd class.

It has to be remembered that racing low magnet HO cars is in it's infancy in the UK and we need people to be able to try it and feel they have a chance without spending a fortune, as as I'm concerned the only part of an AW car that is better than a 40 year old magnatraction is the motor magnets, you might get a good one but the three or four I've got have all run worse than Aurora Magnatractions.

 

[montoya1]

I already have my hands full with the national series, besides which there would be no point starting a vintage series when somebody has already done so. Nonetheless I see no harm in having an opinion on the matter and expressing it here. You are the second 'principle' to respond with rancor, and I can tell you with extensive authority it is not the best way to handle things, especially this early on.

The comments about Tony are not meant as an insult. Nonetheless, anyone who thinks I am alone in wondering if he has skin in the game here is deluding themselves hugely. When you run a series you have to not only be whiter than whiter you have to be seen to be whiter than white, and Tony has a patchy record on that IMHO. The easiest way to eradicate worries on that score when it comes to this series is to allow the XT chassis.

I think the series would be better for it, setting all that aside. Somebody can buy a whole car and race it. If they subsequently decide to get more into the tuning side of things (or cut out the middle man and just get RJ to build them something), then so be it, but that new car may be what gets them through the door that all-important first time.

I mentioned the after-market parts because you both mentioned quality control. The pancake cars, both types, are hugely reliant on a good drive-train, and it is not just the replicas that have issues in that department. Only a dedicated few will spend the time it takes to lap the gears in and blueprint everything several times over, but anyone can buy the aftermarket parts, or so goes the reasoning. I am not advocating that route necessarily, just putting the other side of the coin out there.

 

[Julian_Boolean]

QUOTE (montoya1 @ 17 Oct 2011, 19:50) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>I already have my hands full with the national series,

Then get on with it and leave us to organise our series.

The rules have not been finalised, the purpose of this thread was to let people know what we are doing so they can take part, not to discuss rules.

 

[montoya1]

Message understood.

I can only hope that some of what I suggest will be considered, if the rules truly are up in the air still, but your unwelcoming demeanor suggests otherwise.

I guess I will have a racing free August after all. Only downside is the better half will find jobs for me that weekend

 

[woodcote]

I like it that we're racing 'low-mag HO cars' in the UK. Well done to Julian for taking the plunge and kicking off the scene.

The truth is that it's something that has interested a lot of us around EAHORC for some time. I guess that is why a few of us want to have a say, ask questions and make suggestions.

Look, if you want to organise an East Anglian scene, fine. If we're not welcome if we raise questions or make suggestions, then so be it.

It's just a shame we can't work on developing a UK 'low-mag' scene together

You don't see the point of running T-jets? Personally, I see the point of running anything - if it goes, I want to make it faster

And BTW, there are some stunning-looking T-jets out there. Just search Road Race Replicas, Fairground Specials. And the AW Racing Camaro '68 is one the best looking cars in my HO garage.

 

[slowracer]

Andy

QUOTE (Julian_Boolean @ 17 Oct 2011, 20:26) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>It has to be remembered that racing low magnet HO cars is in it's infancy in the UK and we need people to be able to try it and feel they have a chance without spending a fortune, as as I'm concerned the only part of an AW car that is better than a 40 year old magnatraction is the motor magnets, you might get a good one but the three or four I've got have all run worse than Aurora Magnatractions.

Julians coment is spot on the money here, there are quite a lot of magnatraction and G+ cars in the UK and it seem sensible to offer those that own them, an affordable way to come racing.

QUOTE (woodcote @ 17 Oct 2011, 21:15) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>The truth is that it's something that has interested a lot of us around EAHORC for some time. I guess that is why a few of us want to have a say, ask questions and make suggestions.

It's just a shame we can't work on developing a UK 'low-mag' scene together

You don't see the point of running T-jets? Personally, I see the point of running anything - if it goes, I want to make it faster

The fact that lots of National HO racers are interested in racing Magnatraction and G+ cars is good!

As we have already taken the plunge, bought racers together, had two meetings, started the beginings of formulae based on experience, It really is now our baby.

I am not saying that a UK low mag scene is not tennable, but you have to start some where and go from there. We ARE starting from somewhere that IS based on our experience of racing these cars in a UK racing environment, although it be very limited!

Our formulae will be based off this and tweaked as we go along as such nothing is set in stone

T-Jets, no one really bought them in the UK in the 60's, so there is no point in having a third class for starters, it may spin off in the future who knows, but not for now thank you, two new classes are enough!

 

[woodcote]

QUOTE (slowracer @ 18 Oct 2011, 06:31) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>It really is now our baby
And good luck to you

Only, I think others have raced 'low-magnet' cars in the UK and already see these cars as part of their HO racing repertoire.

I'm thinking of FLBT in particular, but we've also raced (albeit 'for fun') inline brass cars and Magna / X-tractions at EAHORC and at a WHO fun night last year.

Another thing that is important is that these cars are also perfect for home / basement racing - like they do in the States - on smaller tracks than we use at UK clubs.

My personal opinion is that the Magna / X-tractions and T-jets make a great 'in-between-club-nights' racing platform for 6-10 guys racing on a track on a 4x8 board or a bull-ring oval. And this is not just pie-in-the-sky, but will be happening on the south coast over the winter.

Now, there's no problem everyone doing their own thing and learning from their own racing experience. Yet it looks like you have set yourselves up as the UK low-mag racing scene, and you are not prepared to go forward together with other interested parties.

That is the impression I get from these very defensive and - at times - aggressive posts. Which is a real shame

 

[marctownsend]

Wow, I don't know enough about low mag to have an opinion on the tech side but am blown away by the irony of folk who are happy to start a whole thread with the purpose of questioning the rules of a series run by others taking this position on external input.

 

[montoya1]

QUOTE (woodcote @ 18 Oct 2011, 07:02) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>And good luck to you

Only, I think others have raced 'low-magnet' cars in the UK and already see these cars as part of their HO racing repertoire.

Indeed.

My first Pancake race on UK soil took place 17 years ago.

I was also part of a small group that adored the G-Jet and the two copies, we did look at ways of adding a class for non magnet cars to the nationals so as to increase people's choice even more, which would keep the community together. Unfortunately mixing cars that slide in with faster cars that do not turned out not to be viable.