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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Being a motor racing fan and wanting to replicate real life as much as possible in the world of slots, it got me thinking of the fuel vs tyre pitstop discussion and I have some different ideas. Of course I am no expert when it comes to writing software and I think both SSDC and PCLC are fantastic, but sometimes its good to discuss opinions.

Currently in the world of slots, we fuel up the cars and then they become heavy and slow and then as the fuel burns off and they become lighter and faster. My argument is that I do not think this works without having some other parameters set such as tyre wear.

Let me explain...

In real racing, a driver avoids going into the pits unless he has no other option. That is he either needs fuel to keep going, has a mechanical problem or he thinks new tyres will allow him to go faster (or the regulations force a pitstop). The point is that a pitstops slows you down from reaching your target so there has to be an upside.

The upside is that tyres make you go faster, so pitting for fresh tyres makes sense and can actually help you to win the race. Having less fuel is a marginal bonus to going a bit faster but tyres make a bigger difference.

In the world of slots, there is no incentive to pit unless you really have to, but the refueling is currently set as a negative thing. That is, you refuel and then go slower. There is no real incentive to want to use the pits unless you have no other choice.

If tyres were included in slot racing, then there would be a much better reason to pit as you may be able to go faster than your rivals. Now a pit stop is starting to make sense as its a benefit. Now there is a bit more strategy as in do you risk a pit stop to go faster than your rival, rather than pitting for fuel and then going slower anyway.

In an ideal world, we would be able to simulate fuel and tyres but I think with only using the throttle we can really only monitor usage for one. It would be great if fuel went down quicker the more a driver used the throttle in total (so more fuel efficient runs could be done with clever driving) and tyre wear could monitored in the smooth or erratic use of the throttle such as fast acceleration from slow speed wears the tyres more.

Anyway, thats enough from me but uld be great to hear others thoughts on this topic and racing strategy...
 

Prof I T
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hi
tyre wear may well become a factor in the future...
 

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As I understand it, if you don't pit for fuel then you run out, right? The car stops and you're out of the race. That seems like a pretty good incentive to me. We have great fun choosing how much fuel to start the race with and then ho wmuch to put in to finish the race.
 

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QUOTE (Chickster25 @ 20 Jun 2011, 19:59) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Being a motor racing fan and wanting to replicate real life as much as possible in the world of slots, it got me thinking of the fuel vs tyre pitstop discussion and I have some different ideas.
Surely the best way to replicate tyre changes is to change tyres.
Full size GPs have compulsory tyre changes (and they don't have refuelling any more) so nothing unrealistic there.
In a full size pit stop the speed and skill of the pit crew in changing the wheels all plays its part in the race, and if the pit crew foul up that can cost places.
That's replicated by a slot racing where the speed and skill of the pit man in changing the wheels all plays its part in the race, and if he fouls up that can cost places.
Isn't a digital simulation rather a poor substitute?
 

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QUOTE As I understand it, if you don't pit for fuel then you run out, right? The car stops and you're out of the race. That seems like a pretty good incentive to me. We have great fun choosing how much fuel to start the race with and then ho wmuch to put in to finish the race.

But as it currrently stands, you are not going to pit until the last drop is in your tank, otherwise you are going to be going slower? Doesnt that spoil the strategy a little in pititng early for an advantage?
 

Prof I T
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who said you have to fill up to the brim when you do stop?? Filling to 2/3rds gives you a faster car on pit exit..

There are plenty of variables in ssdc to make race strategy a real must and there will be more to come when the various penalty systems and other goodies are implemented.
 

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As I undersand it from Mr Wallace the fuel usage is a squared term on power. On that basis if you set up the parameters correctly you should be able to go further if yu are careful with the throttle. On tyre ware I had a thought. If you use scaley tires they do tend to get "dirty" and lose traction in 10 or twenty laps. A drive through the pits at pit limited speed over some sticky tape would clean them.

In any simulation you need to define the result you need and why. To me if done right (i've not got there yet) the aim of the pit stop, be it tyres or fuel. is more about when to stop in the strategic sence. Pit while you are just catching up on back markers so that when they pit you are in a position to get past them without having to overtake.

In some later version of SSD it would not, I think, be overstreching the capabilities to vary the indecies on which the fuel consumption is based. Fuel/energy management would be even more critical if the fuel burn was proportion to the 3 power not second. In computing terms you could specify the experssion for fuel burn as a function of throttle. A bit like the power curve vs finger position on throttle mapping except finger position is replaced by fuel consumption. However given the standard of SSD generally there may be good reason why the fuel consumpon is what it is and being economic on fuel may be a real stategy in a 50 lap race as it stands. Anybody done an tests on this. Pacers running fixed vs variable throttle would be an interesting comparison. Bit busy at the moment to do it myself.
 

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Just a suggestion to make tire wear a factor for both versions of the PB would be to invert the fuel curve so that cars run fast when "new" and "wear down" so they don't have grip (i.e. run slower). Wait too long and have a flat!

That should be relatively easy to implement since it is the same code as the fuel (using a different "curve" and the flat is the same as out of fuel) but with a "mandatory" pit lane stop time to "change tires".

Only problem is how to indicate whether to fuel up or change tires on the controller.
Options:
1) Select on SSDC ahead of time (an either/or situation - fuel OR tire strategy).
2) Use different buttons, one for fuel, other for tires (brake vs. lane change) OR press Once for fuel, Twice for tires?

I think this is a simpler implementation and would not require custom coding as it borrows from the tire code Andy Wallace has already written.
Comments?

Cheers!
 

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QUOTE (bigbird @ 20 Jun 2011, 21:40) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>who said you have to fill up to the brim when you do stop?? Filling to 2/3rds gives you a faster car on pit exit..
True, but you are still going to be slower than before you pitted...

I think it would be nice if we could choose between tyre wear and fuel simulation as curves would simply be the opposite of each other and easy to implement into the software.
 

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Ush Cha: that's what I do, sticky tape in the pit stall, cleans tires like new
 

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Would that be double-sided tape?

My pit lane gives the option of two different pits with the classic crossover between. You can choose which one at the prior LC, so one for fuel one for tyres?
 

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I am with Chickster25 on this one. In fact, I am sure I brought It up a few years back and one of the solutions was to reverse the fuel curve, like Sealevel suggests. Either way, I think It should be optional to choose for fuel managment or or tyre management or both.

I liked Chickster's proposal to let the fuel level decrease/increase without gain/loss of power, but have full power after a pit stop as If pitted for tyres. This way you have to pit for fuel before running out and/or pit for tyres. I really have to look up that old thread because I know there were some great Ideas. There must be a way to use the controller not just for refuelling (LC pressed) but also to indicate If tyres have to be changed.

@Uscha; Yes, you can definitely have an advantage If you are being econimic on fuel. I tend to use less fuel than other drives, I always have to pit less or shorter than the rest while using same type of cars and that is really an advantage, however I am usally not the fastest on track, may be because of my economic driving style but have won races just because of this, Button style
. Thinking about It, that would also mean I probably save tyres to and have longer advantage of more power
Note; We use button braking, definitely uses less fuel than dynamic braking.

Nice thread !
 

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So if the system is working and fuel economy is working do we need to set a new parameter, for fuel usage. How about comparing fuel usage over say 20 laps of the standard circuit

http://www.slotforum.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=47842

at a standard lap time fixed throttle. Then you could also do no of laps possible on that fuel going a fast as possible and log time. If digital really gets into big time racing you maye even need SSD of the future to calibrate the cars at the start of the session.
 

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Found the thread from a while back I referred to in post #12; SSD simulation
Some interesting points mentioned back than.

I was thinking, to simulate rain, disable brakes. I know I would drive more carefull. Weather could even change during a race. Sunny start, brakes enabled, rain, brakes disabled, sunny again brakes enabled (I imagine SSDC with either a sun or rain pictured).
Now If we could think of a way to improve handling during rain after pitting for tyres...It is either brakes or no brakes I guess, otherwise intermediates would give you 50% brake power or so. Don't think that Is possible, or Is It with the new wirelles throttles and adjustable brakes ? One shoudl think so !

@Uscha; I can't quite follow what you mean, care to explain a little more ?
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
QUOTE I was thinking, to simulate rain, disable brakes. I know I would drive more carefull. Weather could even change during a race. Sunny start, brakes enabled, rain, brakes disabled, sunny again brakes enabled (I imagine SSDC with either a sun or rain pictured).
Now If we could think of a way to improve handling during rain after pitting for tyres...It is either brakes or no brakes I guess, otherwise

I am liking the sound of that. Perhaps if you are on the right tyres for the conditions you stil lhave brakes, but if you stay out when it changes from dry to wet, then you lose your brakes and vice versa.


I was looking for a random weather program the other day but couldnt find anythnig but I think we would need to keep it quite simple, so sunny, cloudy and rain icons and you can either set the weather manually for each quarter of the race or have a % chance of rain option.

Not sure if you can set a % of brake to be used, as then you could simulate light or heavy rain !
 

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QUOTE (JL-F1 @ 20 Jun 2011, 16:34) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Ush Cha: that's what I do, sticky tape in the pit stall, cleans tires like new


I happened upon something interesting while messing around with my cars. Note, I'm using all stock Scaley rubber and magless.....and to the point UshCha said earlier these tires tend to get shiny and/or dirty and lose traction after 10-20 laps even having been sanded just prior. Now I was doing my usual drop of Inox on the braids but somehow squirted some on the tires....and found that the grip increased amazingly after a very brief period of slipperiness (really only a couple of corners) as the Inox absorbed into the tires. For fun I laid down a couple of little Inox puddles on the track and found that cars passing through would have poor grip for a couple of corners, then amazing grip.....literally took a second or so off my lap time!

The solution might be to have some way to get Inox onto your tires when in the pitlane....perhaps cutting a couple of elongated holes in the track and putting in some Inox-soaked sponge that the car can drive over as part of the pit process. The initial lack of grip nicely simulates "new rubber" that needs to get up to temperature and burn off the surface first, and it really does only last a very short time.....

Thoughts?

Steve
 

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QUOTE (Graham Lane @ 20 Jun 2011, 20:24) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Would that be double-sided tape?

My pit lane gives the option of two different pits with the classic crossover between. You can choose which one at the prior LC, so one for fuel one for tyres?

I have the same pit lane as you, you gave me the idea


Yes, double sided tape. I put in both pit stalls, it also helps them stop on the marks
 

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The only problem with that, Steve, is that it only works for some types of tire compounds. It won't soak into silicone or urethane at all, and even some stock rubber will either not absorb it or take too long to do so. Nothing wrong with using it if it works for you, but it would be better for a solution to be more universal. I don't know of any tire that doesn't work better after getting the dust off, though, either with tape or water or whatever.
 

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@Uscha; I can't quite follow what you mean, care to explain a little more ?

Minnardi,
SSD says for fuel burn , that SSD needs to be set up for each, car ajusting tank size and burn rate so they are all the same. More dedicated races may want to "calibrate" thier cars. So you need a standard to set the cars too. The obvious standard (to me) is the scaley test track. Set the tank to run out in say 30 laps of the test track at 4 seconds a lap on middle rate fuel burn. This would give a tank size. If SSD was accurate (it may not be consistent between different APB's) then you would have a measure of efficency by comparing this tank size.
 

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I still think "keep it simple" and just use an inverted curve for tire wear.

As for weather, yes they do have rain on courses... see Montreal last week where the race was halted for almost 2 hours...

But if it was easier to implement, we could have it sooner .... more complicated means delays in development or maybe just frustrate Andy W. to not do anything at all!

Tape on the pit lane is a great and simple idea.

Love the X-over pit lane that Graham Lane and JL-F1 have.
Is the slot depth a problem? And do the converters make the lane too long?

Cheers!
 
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