[Julian_Boolean]

What are peoples feelings on balanced armatures and how that relates to the cost of racing.

First of all let me state I am not trying to change anyone's rules that they race to, just after peoples opinions.

Personally I feel that allowing balanced armatures saves money because the other option is to buy a load of armatures and find the one with the best balance, whereas balancing one yourself or buying a balanced armature means you only need to buy 1 armature.

 

[montoya1]

I have dipped a toe in the water with this issue with EAHORC this season, for exactly the reasons you mention. However, you will need to educate yourself on the differences between the hot stock and customs arms to stop things becoming an, erm, arms race.

If you are thinking in terms of the Pancake cup, ignore the regressives and start off allowing the balanced arms from R.C Lincoln from day 1.

 

[Julian_Boolean]

Hot stock etc is an entirely different can of worms to balanced

I wasn't only thinking about Pancakes but any form of Slot car racing where the motor componenets are restricted, and why some motors run so much better than others, obviously there are manufacturing tolerances in the motors, you could buy a load of motors and find a good one or blue print youself a good one.
From a scrutineering point of view it's a very difficult thing to check.

And Pancake Armatures has proved to be a complicated subject.

 

[montoya1]

Please expand on what you mean by hot stock not being balanced.

As for the complexity issue, I have had to suffer people making crossed with their fingers and making sucking noises through their teeth at the mere mention of balanced arms for 17 years, although less and less with each passing year. There is a lot of nonsense spouted about them, and often the people sucking through their teeth the loudest would be the ones to gain most from using them.

For $10 per arm you can get a bunch of arms balanced by Mr Lincoln Jnr, and, in that department at least, ensure the pancake crowd all start from the same place...

http://dynamicarmatures.com/Armatures.htm

 

[Julian_Boolean]

QUOTE (montoya1 @ 21 Oct 2011, 14:37) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Please expand on what you mean by hot stock not being balanced.

I didn't mean hot stock weren't balanced, but they aren't just balanced (I think)

 

[Gareth]

Personally I've not understood the reason for the balancing ban but I'm new to the racing game! I do know that the idea of putting a balanced arm into my car to make it go faster does appeal and I'm pleased to see their appearance in Pro Mod.

 

[Julian_Boolean]

I don't think the performance difference is that much, but they do run smoother and cooler, in theory it's not difficult to do a static balance, very similar to balancing a motorcycle wheel - which means it will be frustrating as hell, a dynamic balance is better but requires a lot more equipment.

 

[montoya1]

QUOTE (Gareth @ 21 Oct 2011, 15:14) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Personally I've not understood the reason for the balancing ban but I'm new to the racing game! I do know that the idea of putting a balanced arm into my car to make it go faster does appeal and I'm pleased to see their appearance in Pro Mod.

It is not so much a ban, as the fact most cars don't come with them. Even with Pro-Mods the base models from the three manufacturers don't come with them. Bearing in mind the slew of changes EAHORC had to make to get the HO scene up to date, many of which you won't of witnessed, balanced arms was always going to be one of the later items. Luckily when it came to start using them the drivers were actually ahead of me in their desire to do so. We will see if the rolls across into other classes.

The arms themselves should not dramatically push up speeds, that only comes when you start getting into rewinds - they are expensive, and people will wreak loads of them understanding what will and won't work on the amperage we use (which is there for a reason). With the allowed arms they should be more durable, but of course people will push the envelope on that, and the extra cost should be mitigated by giving everyone a shot at a good arm. If $15 sounds a lot, think about guys who will buy fifty $3 arms to find 2 really good ones...

 

[marctownsend]

QUOTE (Julian_Boolean @ 21 Oct 2011, 14:36) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>I don't think the performance difference is that much, but they do run smoother and cooler,

It's the cooler bit that surprised me the first time we ran balanced in our pro mods. I had one car prepared to last years spec and one with a balanced HC arm of a similar origin and not only was it roughly .5 sec quicker over a lap (of 5.5sec) it ran so cool that instead of thinking we were pushing it heat wise now i'm thinking I could use stronger motor mags and smaller tyres.

Will be interesting to see how much of the performance was due to it being a brand new, carefully run in polished arm at the next meeting, I know from playing with hottish D cans in 1/24 that a fresh arm is a beautiful thing but they do go off.

I'm not sure I would be keen on running balanced arms in open wheel EAHORC megas for example "You just have to buy this car they don't sell in the UK, chop these bits off, change these axles and wheels and if you want to keep up with us lot you have to flip these over change this for a balanced one and whatever you do dont drop those springs" stock as is practical for me i'm afraid.

LMP class would be a great way to try out 6ohm balnced arms from Slottech/Wizzard or come to think of it the Harden Creek 6 ohm Tyco stock that lets face it are highly unlikely to find their way into pro mod.

I know i'm well ahead of the curve here Deane, just thinking aloud really.

Good thread Julian

 

[marctownsend]

QUOTE (Julian_Boolean @ 21 Oct 2011, 13:00) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>What are peoples feelings on balanced armatures and how that relates to the cost of racing.

balanced armatures saves money because the other option is to buy a load of armatures and find the one with the best balance

Agreed 100%

But...... as I've said above not sure it's right for entry level classes but for everything else yes, 4 balanced arms in the FLBT club cars that spend a whole evening on the same lane would be a great idea for example

 

[Gareth]

I'm not worried about the $15 cost of a balanced arm. I was already looking at some options that are out there although I know only the HC arms are legal at the moment. I would like to get one for my el cheapo Pro Mod....which will still be cheap with that in it!!

I completely agree Marc that we shouldn't be going down the balanced arm route for Open Wheel. The afternoon is the time for adventure but maybe one or two classes should be kept relatively stock? Anyway this isn't the thread for discussing that!

Julian, have you experimented with pancake armatures and getting them balanced? How've you got on?

 

[Julian_Boolean]

I haven't experimented with balanced arms in Pancakes, I can't even get the gear off the top of the arm, but in theory they should make a bigger difference in a pancake due to the shape of the arm, a poorly balanced one will oscillate quite a bit at the outer edge when spinning at speed, which will then cause the bearings to wear more, an inline arm is long and thin, whereas a pancake arm is more like a bicycle wheel.

 

[Gareth]

Presumably the trueness of the armature "axle" descending from the top plate is also a crucial element as well and I reckon that probably also doesn't help the ease of finding the amazing armature which will propel your car to glory. Suddenly I see just why inline is so much better in that respect! Although I do love pancake cars, don't get me wrong!

 

[Julian_Boolean]

I think that inline cars are from an engineering point of view vastly superior to pancakes, but for some reason I really like the pancakes to drive, another problem with them is that the motor bearings really need to line up perfectly and one of the motor bearings is in the gear plate.

 

[RichD]

There is a great deal of appeal to the idea of running boxstock cars of any sort. You buy a car at the hobby shop or where ever and you should have something that will be competative with other boxstock cars. In reality that is seldom the case. In many cases I have not found a hot stock armature to be faster than a plain stock armature. With pancake cars there are lot more issues than with modern inline cars. The older Aurora Thunderjet cars had decent quality control, but there were differences in performance from car to car, the quality control had slipped a great deal with cars that were made at the end of the production run. The NOS rolling chassis that I have bought in the past few years have all been real dogs and it takes a great deal of work to make them even average runners. Some of the people that I race with buy these things by the thousands (yes, really!), they test them all to find perhaps a dozen decent cars and then sell off the rejects. If that is what it takes to win with boxstock pancake cars you will need a lot of time and money.

 

[mission65]

QUOTE I'm not sure I would be keen on running balanced arms in open wheel EAHORC megas for example "You just have to buy this car they don't sell in the UK, chop these bits off, change these axles and wheels and if you want to keep up with us lot you have to flip these over change this for a balanced one and whatever you do dont drop those springs" stock as is practical for me i'm afraid.

excellent point

 

[montoya1]

QUOTE (marctownsend @ 21 Oct 2011, 20:45) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>I'm not sure I would be keen on running balanced arms in open wheel EAHORC megas for example "You just have to buy this car they don't sell in the UK, chop these bits off, change these axles and wheels and if you want to keep up with us lot you have to flip these over change this for a balanced one and whatever you do dont drop those springs" stock as is practical for me i'm afraid.

These things take time. When I introduced the Wizzard class and allowed hobby chassis in Mod it was all working towards we we take for granted as ProMod now, but it took a little while to get there. I played the long game, you have to make changes when you feel they will not harm the scene overall, but you can't wait until everyone is on board because you will never get that.

I have actually been very cautious when it comes to balanced arms, at that will continue. If they are to roll out across the other classes, it will only be when the guys have a more, erm, balanced view of them.

As for the Mega-G, I remain hopefully that we won't be having to cut wings and change axles someday, and that they will be on sale in the UK.

 

[slowracer]

QUOTE (marctownsend @ 21 Oct 2011, 20:45) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>I'm not sure I would be keen on running balanced arms in open wheel EAHORC megas for example "You just have to buy this car they don't sell in the UK, chop these bits off, change these axles and wheels and if you want to keep up with us lot you have to flip these over change this for a balanced one and whatever you do dont drop those springs" stock as is practical for me i'm afraid.

And all this for a Stock class and its still considered a stock class

who are you kidding.

Buying a car in a shop, change the rear tyres to silicones (so its not quite a stock class), put it on the track and race it, thats a stock class.

Anything else must be considered as being modified!

 

[woodcote]

I do think a balanced arm gives a significant performance boost, both theoretically (energy is used more efficiently) and in practice (my P3 is quicker).

So there is an issue for those that have them (established racers) and those that don't (newbies). One thing that got me hooked on HO was I could race from day one with a car that was on the pace (even if I wasn't) and hopping up a SG+ for Nascar was quite simple and not expensive.

I'm not sure the economics are as simple as in the opening post.

If you're just racing one chassis, then - yes - you just need one arm. Until if goes off or you wreck it. Jon has already said that the HC arms go off quite quickly. The Wizzard SP05 balanced 3-Ohm arm has a reputation for burning up if you're not careful...

If it's an expensive ($50+) arm you would take very good care of it and it makes economic sense to send it back to Wizzard, Slottech etc to be reconditioned at the end of the season.

If balanced arms became standard in club racing, then I run:

Mega-G in EAHORC F1 (plus I want to build a spare)
Tyco in WHO F1 (and my current EAHORC spare)
Wizzard P3 in EAHORC pro-mod (I have 2 cars)
Mega-G in WHO Mod (plus a 1.5 as spare)
Tomy SG+ in WHO Nascar (and a spare EAHORC car if Pro doesn't run)

So that's potentially eight cars I would need a balanced arm for. Quite an outlay, even on a $10-$25-an-arm basis.

For the box stock cars, I am running the arms that came with the cars - and I've done okay with them.

My WHO Mod Mega-G is my original EAHORC F1 car, with the same arm. At HONK I'll have one Pro-mod P3 with an HC balanced arm and one with a stock Mattel arm. By MBR or NSR, I hope to have balances arms in both cars.

I accept that some people will buy up hundreds of cars to find the best stock arm. But they still need to build a decent car and drive it well.

I agree with Rich that this is a bigger issue with the older pancake cars, when most NOS arms available are [email protected] That's why using at least the internals of the JL and AW cars is not a bad idea. RC at Dynamic Armatures is also a possibility, but not exactly a cheap option. Maybe someone in the UK can start offering a balancing service? Martech maybe?

Overall, I think it's only in pro-mod that the balanced arm comes into play - at the moment.

 

[montoya1]

QUOTE (slowracer @ 23 Oct 2011, 12:13) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>And all this for a Stock class and its still considered a stock class

who are you kidding.

Anything else must be considered as being modified!

I agree Tony, but I have to ask, so what?

Marc's point is that it may be a leap with the changes already in place, to then add balanced arms too, and it is a point well made.

I think you are, once more, using some pretty (psuedo) nifty logic-chopping to score points. One could equally argue that the changing of the tyres is a pretty huge one, in terms of laptime, and makes the car a lot less stock than you imply. If you would be willing to race from here on in with rubber tyres not sanded down at all, I would be willing in turn to concede that notion is wrong...

QUOTE (slowracer @ 23 Oct 2011, 12:13) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>put it on the track and race it, thats a stock class.

What about lubricating the car? Bending springs and shoes? Flipping magnets, motors and axles? Running the car on lower voltage so that small amounts of material are shed off things like the crown teeth to lap the car in? These are all things that people do to stock cars that cost nothing, so the line is already blurry.