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· Damien Straw
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Hi All,

I have been looking into other hobbies recently as I saw an RC plane and thought I'd better give that a go too! Anyhow, these days all the electric motors in RC planes seem to be brushless. Is that something that we'll see with Slot Cars in the future? Are there any already?

Obviously they are more efficient and probably more reliable and have less wear, surely that'd be a good thing?

Cheers,
Damo.
 

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I use then in planes and helicopters. Yes you would get more power for the weight but as has already bee said in some areas, bigger powers does not mean more speed on every car particularly on twisty tracks. By the time you add the weight of the electronics to generate the 3 phase power you would need expensive indoor aircraft speed controller which are expensive to buy. You would end up with the F1 effect where power limiting is required, in just to make the track useable. There would be some gain for low maintainace but that may be the only real gain but then how mutch. On my scaley cars the drive train causes more issues than the motor. As an example I have a Fle bay motor that weighs 19 gram and produces a peak power (stated not measured) of 190 watts! Enough to allow the aiecrafts with a 100 gram pack to fly at 40 or 50 mph and accelerate vertically. Clearly way too much power for slay cars.
 

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It'd be pretty mental, my basic brushless 2wd buggy is quicker than the (very) highly modded 2wd buggies i used to get hammered by in the late 80s. Using full throttle is an exercise in terror as the buggy turns itself from a "car" into an un-guided missile.

I can only imagine what would happen with a brushless motor in a slot car............ even a stock motor will spin the wheels and have the back end fishtailing.

(unless you can get teeny tiny little brushless motors....... then the power/weight might be a bit more reasonable, but still, plenty of electronics to fit.)
 

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Brushless motors could go the same way as other changes in motor technology have got into slot cars past.
At first the standard new technology from some other application is applied to slot cars.
That doesn't provide much, if any advantage.
Then guys who understand what makes slot cars work start developing motors specially for slot racing using the new technology.
Extra power isn't necessarily the best way of using new technology - as with previous changes in motor technology slot cars often gained more from lighter, smaller, lower c of g motors than they did from extra power.
Of course just plonking a different sort of motor in an existing chassis isn't usually the best way to get the benefit of the new motor, chassis need to be developed to make full use of the new motors.
Then motor and chassis developments feed on one another to produce a better car.

A gain in efficiency is a huge advantage in planes or cars that have to carry their batteries around with them. In slot cars efficiency is much less significant as long as motor cooling is adequate.
Commutator and brush wear are an issue with brush motors (particularly the quick ones) so brushless would have an advantage there.
Bearing wear would be just as much of an issue with or without brushes.

Will brush less take over in slot cars?
With home set cars, every penny that can be cut from the production cost matters, so the very low production cost of basic brush motors is a big advantage.
With faster cars the customer is prepared to pay more for better performance. Is it worth investing in the development of brushless slot car motors for these? That's a decision for the guys who can afford to make the investment.
 

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Yes, thats the big advantage with the brushless RC buggies, efficiency, my old car (top speed around 40kph) had a run time of around 8-10 minutes, course/gearing dependant.

The new car, using a brushless motor and a 30% smaller capacity battery will hit over 50kph, out accelerate the old car (hugely) and gets a run time of around 20 minutes.

Plus the battery, whilst its the same size, is about half the weight, possibly less. The speed controller is a bit more spendy tho........
 

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Is the above as far as the art of brushless slot cars has developed? Or am I missing something? (Innocent question so be gentle please...)

Meanwhile I noticed recently that 16mm in-runner motors now exist... 130-size... and even they have 2mm diameter shafts. Unloaded they should spin up to 50k rpm.

Interesting?

C
 

· Greg Gaub
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Not really interesting for digital. Crazy fast is not at all helpful without a crazy BIG track where an R4 is considered a hairpin turn. You don't get that much in digital. Even the oXigen Le Mans race wouldn't be suitable because, although the track is the size of a gymnasium, the turns are still normal track radii. If you're just going to slow them down to make them manageable, what's the point of having them in the first place?
 

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Potential other benefits of brushless...

1/ candidate for slotcar land speed record challenge
2/ less wear and tear on motors... e.g no commutators/brushes/sparks inside the motor etc
3/ lower drive currents therefore more cars per amp of power supply or lower voltage drops alng the track.
4/ lower drive currents therefore lower system wear-and-tear and less pick-up arcing and so less emi radiated
5/ less heat so less chance of thermal damage to plastic car body parts
6/ more motor poles so better very slow speed running
7/ reduced vibration for a given rpm
8/ integrated tachometer for telemetry and/or governor mode operation
9/ better overall performance per $/£/euro than high end brushed motors used in slot racing.
10/ and repeating injectormans above post... reduced size... which presumably means more flexibility over where and how we mount our motors...

So maybe its not all about speed... tempting as above item 1 appears...

Not sure how many of the above list will be important as slot cars develop over the next 50 years... also not sure what I have missed... but maybe time to start our rethink...?maybe? So I am putting together a couple of test vehicles... based on slot.it in-lne and sidewinder motor pods... really just for fun at this stage and particularly as i now have access to 16mm mabuchi-sized brushless motors...

Enjoy the festivities...

C
 

· Digital Guru
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11,433 Posts
Hi

I have been looking in on various sites a couple of times a year at development of these motors, the hope is that they become available as a swap out part for the existing brushed ones.

They should prove very beneficial to digital users as there should be no arcing etc which gets transmitted into the chip.

These motors should provide a much closer running tolerance as well so things should be more even accross a field of cars, brushes have a big impact on revs and current draw.

fuel burn on rms will drop significantly and throttle response will be very linear.
 

· Alan Wilkinson
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1,530 Posts
My understanding of brushless motor tech is that an onboard speed controller would be required.
RC cars have had onboard speed controllers for decades so reworking the design of these for brushless was a natural evolution.
Slot cars have not typically had speed controllers onboard but these were introduced to support digital racing.

Without a push from a big digial player (scalextric or slot it?):
- are digital motors in slot cars even possible?
- would they really be any better?

AlanW
 

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I might put brushless drive signals into next generation (independent) incar decoders... i.e. a 1-2ms pulse at 50/100 refresh rate like R/C models and compatible with brushless esc signals... just an option for anyone wanting to go down the brushless route... need to think about proportional braking control too...

C
 

· Kevs Racing Bits
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A brushless motor will need an onboard ESC as had been said. If you're going that far you may as well add an onboard receiver then you can race the car with an RC transmitter...programmable traction control, brakes, throttle profiles, ABS and that's just starters. I've used my Sanwa transmitter to prove the idea but the radio gear was intended for 1/12th scale so miles to big for my slot cars.
 

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Yepp... and decoder-pro version 1.0 spec includes an option for PPM input from a micro R/C receiver... so that is covered too... and the R/C receiver module (DSM2) is only 10mm x 10mm so not too bulky. We will need a special esc for proper proportional braking... then job done :)

C
 

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Hi Ade... we are getting really close to being in a position to answer your question...

and we should be able to use any of these digital platforms in due course... for me DSM2 onto a firmware updated SSD decoder is the easiest starting point... but O2 and Scorpius decoders will also make an excellent platform... the breakthrough will be the firmware to control motor braking... and havng this mniaturised onto a slot-car decoder pcb... or perhaps a slave pcb which solders directly onto the brushless motor terminals... will share some photos and performance data towards end of Jan... meanwhile have a great and very festive holiday...

C
 

· Greg Gaub
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Potential other benefits of brushless...

1/ candidate for slotcar land speed record challenge
2/ less wear and tear on motors... e.g no commutators/brushes/sparks inside the motor etc
3/ lower drive currents therefore more cars per amp of power supply or lower voltage drops alng the track.
4/ lower drive currents therefore lower system wear-and-tear and less pick-up arcing and so less emi radiated
5/ less heat so less chance of thermal damage to plastic car body parts
6/ more motor poles so better very slow speed running
7/ reduced vibration for a given rpm
8/ integrated tachometer for telemetry and/or governor mode operation
9/ better overall performance per $/£/euro than high end brushed motors used in slot racing.
10/ and repeating injectormans above post... reduced size... which presumably means more flexibility over where and how we mount our motors...

So maybe its not all about speed... tempting as above item 1 appears...

Not sure how many of the above list will be important as slot cars develop over the next 50 years... also not sure what I have missed... but maybe time to start our rethink...?maybe? So I am putting together a couple of test vehicles... based on slot.it in-lne and sidewinder motor pods... really just for fun at this stage and particularly as I now have access to 16mm mabuchi-sized brushless motors...

Enjoy the festivities...

C
Excellent list, Doc. I'm definitely more interested than I was before.

With the tiny brushless motors and ESC available these days (see micro-drones), I wonder why we haven't already seen them in slot cars.
 
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