[moped rider]

lotus03 has said this...

QUOTE Just remember a rubbish driver with a great car will still not be as good as a great driver with a rubbish car.

So is it the car or the driver who wins?

Lap times at the Wrexham Audi event were all within about 10% so there were a lot of good drivers there.

Our own team times improved as we fine tuned the car (thanks Phil

) so that by heat 3 we were nicely set up and quite honestly I was within one or two laps of the leaders (Wrexham) all the way round after my 10 minutes of racing and having knocked up 49 laps.

Clearly the improvements that we were making to the car had helped.

The winners were Wrexham. The home team. Would it have been a different result if my team were running with Wrexhams car, and Team Wrexham were running with our car?

So is it the driver or the car?

At what point does the car takeover allowing weaker drivers to compete?

And at what point does the driver take over allowing weaker cars to compete?

The only fair way as I keep saying is for every car to be identical and that means BOX STANDARD with no messing.

I hope JEXY1 seriously applies these rules to the NSCC national challenge to the point that cars are drawn on the basis of lots at the start of each heat so that any attempts to tweek cars and not keep within the spirit of the rules are an absolute waste of time.

Moped

 

[bastumannen]

A good driver can certainly do something impressive with a medium car, but it is of course impossible to determine any limits here, as to when what takes over.

I don't believe that box standard solves anything because there are a lot of factors making them vary quite a bit too (motors, gearmesh, out of round wheels, marginal size difference in axles and bearings... etc).

Tuning within fixed limits is a good way I think, then you can have some controll both ways.

Toby

 

[McLaren]

... and I'd like to thank lotus as the inspiration for this post, and I'd like ot thank God and my parents for always being there for me...

Anyway, I consider myself to be a medium to good driver in the overall sceme of things (I can't spell tho, lol) but I consider myself to be able to set up pretty good cars (with a few exceptions, see last Sunday...). I can't keep up with our club champion, when he has modest cars. When I set up a car for him, he runs away with it. However, as you say the best leveler is the 'out of the box' or club car setup. Unfortunatly for the rest of us, he still beats us all, and gets up to 5 seconds extra at the end of a race than anyone else can out of a really carp car. Funny though, you give him a dog car he still wins... So this proves that a top driver will always do well. (BTW, when I say top driver, I mean to 2%, not just above average...)

There are a father and son duo at our club (mention no names) who always seem to have the fastest car in a straight line. The kid is quite fast when he keeps it on, and when he offered me a drive of his car the other day I said I'd try it. It was better than the car I was running that night. Howver, he couldn't drive it, so I beat him overall.

Conclusion:

A top driver will almost always win.

Give an awesome car to a medium driver, he still won't win.

Give an awesome car to a good driver and he will keep up with a top driver with a medium car.

Not very quatifiable, but hope this helps. I'm guessing that this all stems back to you want to know why you didn't win at Pheonix when you had the best car on paper. I say practise more.

Lotus

 

[moped rider]

No it doesn't stem back to Phoenix at all. The car set up was all wrong for Ninco track.

But it is an interesting point that you made Lotus and you could provide some hard evidence by doing the following experiment.

In your next club event why don't you experiment and ask that your top driver races with the car being raced by the worst driver who turns up on the evening.

And then allow the worst driver to race with the top drivers car.

It will be an interesting twist don't you think?

Let us know how you get on.

Moped

 

[Difflock]

Notice how Mope never mentions my standard of driving!

I can snatch defeat from the jaws of victory anytime!!

Mark.

 

[Wankel Ickx]

As in 1:1, the driver always make the difference. Witness Schumacher and his team mates.

When I went to the defunct Maidenhead club I could never understand how Kevin Tombeur could always, and I mean always, hustle a dodgy car around the track just as efficiently as a good 'un.

It was quite depressing, actually.

Plus he used to hold his throttle funny.

 

[McLaren]

lol, I remember Kevin...

Moped, I don't need to, Matt usually races with a garbage car. He's so good he doesn't bother setting his cars up anymore... Exactly the same as with Kevin... I agree, depressing...

Lotus

 

[JBriggsK9]

<<In your next club event why don't you experiment and ask that your top driver races with the car being raced by the worst driver who turns up on the evening.

And then allow the worst driver to race with the top drivers car.>>

Lotus

We do something like this as a fun night in our club...... As the cars are placed on the track for a heat the drivers then have to draw from a box the lane (car) they will be driving... The only rule is you can't pick your own car.....

The racing is fun and it gives everyone a chance to drive everyone cars... The so so drivers get a feel for the good drivers cars and the good drivers do the same for the other cars and suggestions are made to make the cars better.....

but in the end the results are the same.... the good drivers still come out on top...

Chris.....

 

[McLaren]

But doesn't evenyone set up a dog?

I'm sure that would happen if we did it at my club. Some people take things too seriously (don't say a word Roly!).

Lotus

 

[Mecoprop]

As in so many things, there can never be a universal answer to the original question. It must depend on the cars and on the drivers. It's quite possible to have a bad driver with a good car beating a superb driver with a car that is TOO bad.

As for the subsidiary points, rotating drivers around the same cars is the only way to find the 'best' driver, regardless of car. Or is it? One must raise the question of what defines 'best' driver. Even this method possibly only finds out who is the most adept at learning the characteristics of different cars and in different lanes. But this doesn't necessarily make him/her the 'best driver, only the most adaptable. It's perfectly possible that another driver could beat that one if they both had identical cars or that one of them could excel in certain lanes while the other excelled in others!

So it is a complex area and the 'obvious' answers are not foolproof.

 

[cheater]

Mecoprop wrote:

"It's quite possible to have a bad driver with a good car beating a superb driver with a car that is TOO bad."

I think this is the best answer. To state it another way, a superb driver can often (but not always) make up for a bad car.

I think I posted this tale to another thread here, but one of the ex-Champion of Chamblee employees who used to race here in Atlanta tells of getting very depressed in trying over a period of months to run with Bob Cozine in a particular commercial raceway class, where Cozine was almost unbeatable. Once night, after getting soundly beaten by Bob again, he mentioned to Bob how frustrated he was in trying to build a car that would run with him. Bob says, "Let me drive your car and you drive mine." Of course Cozine proceeded to run rings around the frustrated racer once they had swapped cars.

So if you ask me, the driver is the most important factor, with the provision that even the world's best driver cannot make up for a really bad car. On the other hand, a great car setup can go a long way toward making a less-than-great driver look good.

I do feel that the variability of out-of-the-box 1/32 cars is such that requiring true "box-stock" cars is a not a guarantee of car equality. These mass-produced cars are simply not manufactured to the requisite level of consistency and precision to exhibit anything like equal performance. Even with jig-built 1/24 stamped steel cars like I normally race, where we try to work with tolerances of at least .001-inch, two identically-prepared cars will often exhibit significant variances in performance and handling.

The very best format for taking the cars out of the equation is what Parma uses at its Challenge Cup races here in the States: carefully prepared cars and controllers which stay on the same lanes throughout the event, with the drivers moving from lane to lane during the race.

 

[ProfFate]

Hi

I guess that since Moped brings this up every few months, he not only discounts everyone else who posts, but really doesnt care!

My eperience is this: "Best Driver" is not an absolute. My favorite 1:1 driver, Jimmy Clark was famous for driving bad cars well(the story was that if there was a sudden bad lap, call him in, something had broken, but he would adjust). But on the street, he was famous for denting his sedans because he would have trouble making up his mind about which lane to take.
I have been building slot cars for others for most of my life. It is rare that I dont find whoever I build for to be FASTER than I am with the car. If tomarrow, Moped became the Bernie of slot racing, I would be a non-racer the day after! I do win now and again, I do it with preparation. I do it by doing the set up in a way that feeds into my weaknesses.
In years of building, I have observed that drivers differ a lot. You can have drivers who can win, but only if the car is set up for them. One great pro I have built for likes the car very very very "nervous". If it does not seem to be on the verge of doing something stupid, he gets bored and, when attention lapses has a crash. Make it Nervious and undriveable by an ordinary driver, and he will cruse easily through the race. Another pro of great success I have built for likes a forgiving car. For the opposite reason. That is, if he is certain that the car will forgive and scrub off his mistakes, he is braver about pushing it to the limit. He wont' make mistakes, but he will have the confidence to push the limits.
Not quite "horses for courses" but more "set ups for Drivers". "One car to FIT them all" is a fantasy.

Fate

 

[phipster]

It's simple really -

When you win - it's because you're a great driver.

When you lose - it's because of the car

Never any other way.

 

[Tropi]

That's probably often the way it is portrayed!

But, in my case I KNOW I am not a great driver and was delighted to beat the crap out of our F1 aces and break the club lap record last weekend by dint of producing an unbeatable car.
Perfectly happy for the car to get the credit!
Perfectly happy to be a crap driver if I can make cars like that one!

 

[McLaren]

I like my cars to get the credit also. I am going to uni next year to study Motorsport Engineering and it's for the same reasons. I like to design and build things that are good. If I were in football, I'd be a coach rather than a player. It's a shame there aren't any more competitions for cars rather than drivers. Although I do like the odd moment of glory, and when the legality of my cars is under scrutiny, I am the one responsible for that race record 'thank you very much...'.

The problem with my driving is that it's very obvious. Everyone always seems to watch my car so I never get away with anything. If I screw up in a race, it's my fault, no question... When I win, it's because I have the best car on the night... People don't like to complement me much...

lotus

 

[Fergy]

QUOTE If I were in football, I'd be a coach rather than a player. It's a shame there aren't any more competitions for cars rather than drivers

No problem, Lotus! I'll send you the specs and you can build all my future cars for me.

Phipster and Fate -

 

[BEEJAY7]

Lotus
QUOTE If I were in football, I'd be a coach rather than a player. It's a shame there aren't any more competitions for cars rather than drivers.

Thats what Proxy races are all about.

Regards

Alan

 

[LMP]

I think when kids put eight magnets in their 40,000 rpm MG Lola then its down to the car.

An example of driver skill would be JW at pheonix who has raced a non mag every time I have gone and still finished in the top positions.

 

[McLaren]

I know about Proxy races. But there is only one which involves Brits, and even then, I'm not sure I trust the postie to get my cars around the world. Anyway, I said I wish there were more. I'm gonna compete in this years proxy race anyway...

lotus

 

[jonny s]

I think the best driver is the person who wins with the best set up for his car. The best drivers know how to get the most out of their car by tuning and making sure the car is as well set up as possible. That`s the situation in the world of motor sport. Same team different result between drivers,i.e. Ferrari F1, is down to both car set up and driving skill and the same applies to Slot racing. The reality is a top driver will not race a car that is poor as the driver know s how to sort the car out. It`s all part of the race craft need to win.

The Phoenix top driver is P1 Darbs. We know that he is the top driver because we race a year long championship,racing six classes and using all the lanes in all race meetings racing against all the drivers over the year. Our rules stipulate mostly box standard and scrutineering reveals that most of the time his cars are straight out of the box i.e. non modified but, very well set up. If I used his car and he used mine he would still beat me more times than I could beat him.