[martinkay]

The other point to make is that any situation where one or more cars are trying to pass another (whether for position or to lap them) never seems to last very long; one of you will de-slot, or you will all arrive at the scene of someone else's accident, or catch up with yet another car, etc., which usually breaks up any stalemate. Having trialled various rules and guidelines for courtesy, lapping, and overtaking the only one that really makes sense is "be patient" - if you are truly a better digital driver (that means not just quick but tactically-aware and forward-thinking) than the person driving the car in front, you will soon find a way past. And make up any time you lost if you were being held up by a tailender.

 

[Tropi]

It's very interesting to see the various attitudes to 'manners' and 'politeness'.

Is there room for these in competitive RACING though?
Is giving up your seat on a bus to someone whom you personally judge to be in 'more need', actually comparable with competitive racing, whose actual primary purpose is to WIN. If the purpose is simply to have fun, without the spur of aiming to win, then it really isn't racing at all!
That is not a criticism.
Just acceptance that these are two very different things, both valid, but not comparable, imho.
Possibly the polar opposites of each other.

To follow the 'gentlemanly' line of reasoning through, suggests that, if your competitors have inferior cars, or are just plain slower drivers, you should cheerfully give up your track position,no matter what it is, because their need might well be judged to be greater!

Well, to be honest, in a 'fun' situation I am quite happy to do just that - in the interest of as many people enjoying themselves as possible.
But it ain't actually RACING.

I really can see both points of view.
Each undeniably has its merits and, as long as all participants agree to the particular 'rules' in a given situation, then this is probably the best that can be managed.

But can they agree?
The 'spirit' will always be subjective in definition. But even the most well-considered competitive racing rules always seem to be subject to interpretation - else there would NEVER be any disagreement over them. Furthermore, the judgemental enforcement of those interpretable rules is an incredibly unenviable task - certainly not one that I would want if I valued my slottist friendships.

Taking all into account, I can't think how we will EVER find agreement here!
But it makes for a lively disussion and that can be as much fun as racing, it would seem!

 

[CMOTD]

QUOTE Taking all into account, I don't think we will EVER see agreement here!

I suppose it really is the difference between the modern Senna/Schumacher attitude (let me through or choose to crash) and the Villeneuve (G) approach (I am the hardest racer around but, if you beat me into a corner, I will never pull over on you). I am from an older generation and I know which I prefer!

I know that what we do is not real motor racing but, in relation to the subject of this thread (manners when being lapped) I really don't see the point of being deliberately obstructive. I race as hard as I can but, if I am not on the pace for whatever reason, I will always ease off on a straight to let the faster guy lap me. It costs maybe a 1/10th of a second, we all stay friends and they don't stick me in the barriers when I am lapping them.

Brian

 

[Tropi]

Brian
I personally think your position is a very fair balance - the problem being whether all the other participants feel exactly the same at a particular moment or incident in time.

Referring back to full-size stuff: it has been known for a back-marker to let through one of the leaders so enthusiastically that he completely failed to see the OTHER guy(s) behind and took them out instead!

Dammit - there really is no universal solution!

 

[Mr Peewee]

Its all about competitive racing. but people must remember slot car racing should be non contact. Race every lap hard and competitive but not smashing off all the cars around. Drivers should not be forced to pull over, however its there choose if they decide to do so only ever if being lapped.

Unless racing stockcars, which are a lot stronger.

Any contact with F1 slotcars on digital will damage both cars knocking both drivers out and leading to 3rd pace driver winning. After a some DNF all drivers will soon race trying to not contact but racing every lap.

Also competitive racing every lap gives new less experienced drivers more racing and thinking skills, due giving them some excitement each lap. It becomes more about thinking than the guy with the most money ( Fastest car) that wins all the time.

 

[jonny s]

I have read with interest the points above and like many discussion points on this forum there is very little agreement. It is not a case of right or wrong because we are all involved in different racing/hobby situations and approach the same hobby in may different ways.

I began reading this without comment because it appeared to be specific to Digital. At this thread continues it would appear that the issue involves racing in general.

My view, based on what we do at Phoenix, is about sportsmanship,selflessness and mutual respect for other peoples property. I may be accused of taking this all too seriously, but put into the context of club racing, this is what we do. Any racer that is being lapped is placed under a blue flag. This means as Race Controller I will call "Blue flag !" on your car, over the PA and at the same time the flashing blue light in front of the racers is switched on. If the car slows up (Brian is spot on,i t takes very little time) then no problem and that is very much appreciated by the faster racer which in turn leads to a friendly relationship between club members. If the car that is blue flagged does not pull over then I deliver a 5 second Stop/Go penalty by cutting the lane power to that offender. A semi humorous bollocking is also normally attached. Not once at the highest level of our club racing have I had to do this, not once. I have with the beginner levels of our club meets until they are educated.

It is not funny to knock off a leading car and cause damage. It`s just common sense and a gentlemanly thing to do. Many clubs claim that they are poorly supported. Well, perhaps more than a few racers get fed up with travelling long distances each week only to get knocked off WHILST LEADING and see that their championship chances are greatly reduced. It takes commitment to race regular at a club, why on earth would you want to see a whole seasons attendance scrapped because someone has not got the self discipline and thought for others to just give way WHEN YOU ARE BEING LAPPED.

There is no right or wrong but there is a standard. It applies to everything you do in your life. It may be trendy to be a selfish, self interested individual , with no self discipline, but not at our club. If you want to play `bumper cars`then go to the fair.

 

[martinkay]

I think that as more and more digital accessories become available over the coming months and years it will be easier to apply these kinds of rules of combat; but for example at the moment, when racing, we don't really have any quick and easy way of identifying who is on the same lap (no big screen displays available) so it's difficult to blue flag anyone, and we can't apply power cuts until a pit lane is available for cars to take their stop/go penalty in. Until the boffins catch up the best we can do is find a workaround that suits our particular situation and the standards of drivers we have on track.

 

[darainbow]

martin,
My suggestion is to install a track call capabilty so that if any dispute arises, power can be cut and resolution made.

 

[Wankel Ickx]

I thought 'small and darty', i.e. a home track was just what this tomfoolery was aimed at?

Add that point to this,

QUOTE The other point to make is that any situation where one or more cars are trying to pass another (whether for position or to lap them) never seems to last very long; one of you will de-slot, or you will all arrive at the scene of someone else's accident, or catch up with yet another car, etc., which usually breaks up any stalemate. Having trialled various rules and guidelines for courtesy, lapping, and overtaking the only one that really makes sense is "be patient"

and mix in a suggestion I saw on another thread, to put sticky bumpers on the front of your expensive toy cars to protect them from the carnage, and I think you have a surefire way of killing any lingering enthusiasm for this malarky with the kiddies first and the mums and dads second. Up into the loft with it, never to be seen again until you move.

There ain't gonna be any lap after lap racing. Just frustration at not being able to get around and shouts and cries of blame.

But hey, the manufacturers have overnight increased the ticket price of our hobby.

Cynic? Moi?

P.s If you are lapping me on our analogue set up then you have to lap me; I'll look out for you, I won't slide any wider than normal, but I have my own race to run, thanks, and if I'm being lapped it ain't going to well.

 

[martinkay]

QUOTE (Wankel Ickx @ 27 Feb 2005, 17:15)There ain't gonna be any lap after lap racing. Just frustration at not being able to get around and shouts and cries of blame.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Not on our track. We are having some excellent races, and everyone who tries it goes away very impressed. Of course we have pile-ups from time to time but that's racing.

 

[darainbow]

QUOTE (Wankel Ickx @ 27 Feb 2005, 18:15)There ain't gonna be any lap after lap racing. Just frustration at not being able to get around and shouts and cries of blame.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Everyone who has raced on my track has shown a huge amount of respect for the equipment. The driving/racing that we do is much more fun than analog and it looks more realistic.

Because cars are on the same line you get the "rubber band" effect of cars accelerating and decelerating. As cars approach a turn the trailing car gains relative position, but then loses it again as the leading car accelerates out of the turn.

With 4 lane analog all the cars are in their own little world. I have never thought analog looks like real racing. Nor does RC look like real racing. Digital has captured something very special.

 

[SlotShop]

Well, we ran 6 car 20 lap races on my SCX digi set and there was lots of passing and lots of different winners.

Starting on pole doesn't make winning any easier on a short course with 6 cars, even if a driver had built up a comfortable lead out front on his own. Once he starts lapping he would quite often either not choose the right line, or just didnt have the pace to get around the lapped car or would have an off trying to find a way around.

This would allow other front runners to catch up or even sneak pass.

To me and the 8 guys that joined me on our first digi racing night this is what it was all about, fun, strategy and real passing, but most of all fun.

Out of the 9 of us, 2 hadn't offically raced multi lane, 7 have raced 1/32 and 1/24, 1 nationally and 1 internationally. I feel the spread of guys just on that one night alone shows not only the potential, but the overall acceptance of digital racing.

When ever I set a digi track up in the shop it's always warmly received.

Personally I feel it's a great addition to the hobby, but obviously will attract debate in the same manner as non magnet vs. magnet, plastic vs. routed, wing cars vs. hard body true scale and ofcourse as the topic name suggests, to let a faster driver pass or make em work for it...

Whether it's 2 lane lone racers, multi lane or digital, to us, it's all about fun. The occasional win makes it all the more enjoyable as well as a bit of grunting thrown in...

I'm sure each track owner/group will address the issue of digital courtesy in a variety of ways and I'm sure it'll be successful and enjoyable.

 

[Mr.M]

QUOTE (darainbow @ 27 Feb 2005, 19:22)With 4 lane analog all the cars are in their own little world. I have never thought analog looks like real racing. Nor does RC look like real racing. Digital has captured something very special.
<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I realise you don't actually say that digital looks realistic but I take your inferrence to be that it looks more realistic than R/C!

How do you come to that conclusion?

Mr.M

 

[Alan Smith]

QUOTE I realise you don't actually say that digital looks realistic but I take your inferrence to be that it looks more realistic than R/C!

How do you come to that conclusion?

It is very easy to come to that conclusion. With digital slot car racing you do seem to end up with several cars racing in the same line following one another either closely or less so and each driver looking for an overtake opportunity. This is very similar to NASCAR, F1, Le Mans, etc.

With R/C it ca be wayward with drivers all taking different lines and this does look less realistic.

6 lane slot car racing looks even less realistic!

However each form of racing is fun in its own way so simply enjoy what you have and lets be thankful that the manufacturers are giving us more options than ever before.

Alan

 

[mad727]

As each weekend goes by and we get better at racing multi-lane digi, it's obvious the fun is in drafting, passing, and holding the lead with a few competitors on your tail.
At first we were a bit wild but we've settled into a good system. Our only golden rule is no ramming from behind, obvious I know. 1st time offender penalized a lap, second time out of that heat. Otherwise what happens on the track is what happens on the track including getting around slower cars which is not that big of a deal. On the occasional multi-car crash the marshal will call a halt or half speed but that's about it.
I can only speak for digi since it's only what I own but I wouldn't trade it for the world, it's created a good natured, highly competitive activity for my family & friends.

Today a buddy of mine did a very interesting thing down the long straight away I have with 4 LC's, he kept lane changing in front of me to hold the lead into the turn which he did but I then passed him later on through a multi-curve section. I can just see half your with your eyebrow's raised but I will say it was quite fun and really got up my competitive blood. Not sure if we will allow it but I thought I'd mention it.

Good racing to all

 

[darainbow]

QUOTE (mad727 @ 28 Feb 2005, 03:21)Not sure if we will allow it but I thought I'd mention it.

Good racing to all

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Better racers wont change lanes much. While you can take the LC at high speed, its just a little bit harder to drive fast when changing lanes, especially if the LCs are in front of a turn.

I think intentional blocking might deserve a penalty but we havent had to deal with that yet. Unintentional blocking happens though and you live with it.

 

[Tropi]

mad727
Rear ending - it must be extremely difficult to judge fairly whether it was deliberate or not?
I can see a heavy and almost irresistable potential for the guy in front to get the guy behind penalised?
A very difficult call for the marshall/referee.

 

[Wankel Ickx]

Rear-ending doesn't exist in analogue.

K.I.S.S.

Rules and regs for rear-ending and passing might add a level of realism but doesn't sound at all fun to me. IMHO. But then I'm not looking for that degree of realism and I wonder if the kids want it too?

I wonder how big the enthusiast adult market is for digital?

 

[astro]

digital skeptics -

Surely the existence of this and other threads shows that digital racing in practice is fascinating and absorbing to those who participate in it?

Of course it is not for everyone, and maybe it is not for you. Fine.

But claiming analogue is more realistic? Of course analogue is a satisfying and fantastic game/sport. But the only form of it that is truly realistic is analogue drag racing, where the 2 cars are kept seperate. If you truly want to K.I.S.S., then sell all your multiple radii curves and set up an analogue drag circuit!

Constructive ideas are always welcome from anywhere, but let the digital guys figure out digital issues!!!

 

[martinkay]

QUOTE (Wankel Ickx @ 28 Feb 2005, 10:20)But then I'm not looking for that degree of realism and I wonder if the kids want it too?

I wonder how big the enthusiast adult market is for digital?
<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The kids do want it, I can tell you from first hand experience. We have all sorts of people racing on our track from experienced slot racers to novices, kids from about age 8 upwards to grannies and everything between. Seeing the wide grins on their faces when they first realise they can overtake and hearing their laughter is great. We already have people booking to come back and better their entry in the fastest lap time contest. And to my certain knowledge at least two parties have said they will get an SSD set or dust off their old set and upgrade it to digital as a result of trying our track. In fact we are starting to experience problems getting people to check out of their rooms ("just one last go after breakfast, Dad, aww pleeease"). So IMHO there is absolutely no doubt that digital is the way to go and we just need to work out sensible ways of managing the racing.