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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Oh, I see that digi-people is a little bit bored. Let's start a little bit of controversy. OK, this question is for people who plan to run with digital cars. As any competition, digital races need a regulation. In your opinion, what should be permitted to do in a digtal race and what should be illegal? I'm talking about collisions, re-slotting, shifts, and (of course) cars: Should be permitted to change electronics components, modify the schematic or re-program the controller? And what about controllers?

Who wans to start the discussion?

PS1: One more time, apologies for mistakes in the text, I know mi english is not good.
PS2: Of course, any idea/suggestion/... from anyone will be welcomed, no just pro racers (obvious!).
PS3: Moderatos-if you think that this question is not in the correct forum, my apologies for that. I though this idea was more focused to the digital world.
 

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DT
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No problem with asking such questions at all.


Have you some experience with the SCX system?

We have some people here who have raced with the DAVIC system and although that system has features built in to help with racing like the extra outside lane for putting cars back on, perhaps they can add their thoughts.
 

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Hi,
<In your opinion, what should be permitted to do in a digtal race and what should be illegal?

??????????? What exactly do you mean with that?? Regulations as with any other race.

<I'm talking about collisions, re-slotting, shifts, and (of course) cars: Should be permitted to change electronics components, modify the schematic or re-program the controller? And what about controllers?

Now that is a of course a little different to "normal" races. Especially collisions from behind. If a slower car is catchted up by a faster car (at least this was the rule in Eupen and it will be the rule in Salzburg), the slower car may stay in the lane and the faster car has to overtake the slower car.
If the faster car deslotts the slower car (bumping into the slower car), the faster car getts a stop-and-go-penalty. Stop-and-go area is a marked area on one of the outside lanes, where you have to change lanes until you reach the penalty zone. Stop there and drive out again and change lanes until you reached one of the "better" lanes.

Change of electronic parts is like asking to change the standard Fly motor with a Slot.it motor????? Of course NO!

Re-programm the controller. I think by this you mean the electronic device in the car?
Of course NO, I do not thibk that many of us have the experience to do this and what would you improve by doing this?????????

So what about controllers. As far as I know (DAVIC system) only "normal" controllers are permitted as the system (DAVIC) would not take any other controllers. So just standard Parma controllers with whatever resistance you like (from 0-100 Ohm), or a MRRC controller or a standard Carrera controller or......
No electronic controllers as they would interfer with the electronic track system.

Please remember that the above lines are ONLY for DAVIC!!

Nico

24h GT Salzburg
 

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hi

i can give you my French Davic point of view:

on car, we use a NC1 even if the car was with a NC2 or other car... you'll have to put a NC1... i think it's a little boring but, it's the rule.

for the changing line rule, the one who changes line is not prioritary.

for kicking a car : it's forbidden, but if you don't put it off the track you'll only have a "BE CAREFUL!!!!!!!! GRRR"
if you kick a car out of the track you'll have a 10second stop and go penalty and you'll have to go by yourself to the stop & go place!

if you go out of the track, marshal put back you on one line with is the same for all


On cars, you are alowed to lest them, no magnets.
Controlers must be classicals controlers (no electronicals controler) but you are able to do the same setting than with an electronical controler directly on the track for each pilot.

As i said it's our rules for the moment. any motors is ok, i don't know for braking lights, but normal light are ok

maybe i'll be able to put you a past race rules to make you having an idea on my site


but a changing line system, and Davic for me, is a very good and interesting racing system
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Thanks for your replires, I take the idea. To be exact, I don't ask for the regulation manual itself, but for the rules you would like to apply.

Nuro:
-No, I have no experience yet. Wish I had.

Nico:
-Thanks a lot for your experience, I'll read the Salzburg reglement.
-Well, I see that you are not allowed to change motors... that's possible on most of races in Spain. So you keep cars close to the original one.
-Talking about the hand controller: as far as I know, due to electronics Davic system only accepts resistive controllers.
-And the electronics: I see that your regulations are mechanically strict, I mean, you cannot replace many parts; as I said before, it's common in spanish races to replace many parts from the car to improve performance. And I meant "reprogramming the (micro)controller", sorry.

Elicend:
-Your comment is very clear.

And a last question: Imagine that some kind of electronics could detect possible collisions before it happens. I mean, no lane change if destination lane is busy at that moment; and automatic braking before kicking. Should races use this gadget?
 

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Hi guys,

I've no experience of Digital by any manufacturer but for what it is worth I don't think that automatic braking for collision avoidance should be implemented. Whilst there would not be any damage (no collisions!) the auto brake would remove some degree of skill from the race and therefore what is the point in racing?

Accidents will happen, but the ruling about a stop and go penalty for shunting someone should be a "major contribution to road safety"
Sorry - English joke there. Refers to some tyre adverts on TV in the 70s

Mark.
 

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hmm, rearending the opponent... my vectra wound up good and proper against something less indestructable... shbang! you can see it now and if it's mickl then it would be even funnier!
 

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Brian Ferguson
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I agree with Diff that systems which prevent rear-end collisions (auto braking) should not be implemented. Nor should interlocks to prevent lane changes.

Digital racing is, by definition, a more complex form of slot racing. Drivers will need to develop new skills. Not only are collision detection interlocks very unrealistic (and realism is a key factor in the entire push for digital), but they could also be used by drivers as a "crutch". Why would I brake when catching a slower car if the system will do it for me? Why would I worry about timing my lane change properly if an interlock will prevent a mistake anyway? If digital racing manufacturers start to employ such things in their systems, I will be most unhappy. I don't have "training wheels" on my bike - I don't want them on my digital system.


I really don't see that there would be many rule changes needed at all. The DAVIC users seem to have successfully adopted stop-and-go penalties for the "aggressors" and I think something like that would quickly make drivers more aware of their responsibilities. Preparation rules will ultimately be limited by system capabilities - power supplies and/or digital chip power handling limitations will dictate motor options, the system electronics will dictate controller choices, etc.

PS @ Inte... I must have had one too many - I'm seeing double...
 

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hi

well you're right, but i didn't heard before about system which brakes for you.

As i said, if you put off the track another car, you have a Stop & go which is very long, because you have to go to the stop & go line (which is the slowest one), to wait 10 second, and to come back from this line :this is about 30second... when a lap is about 6 second.... you be careful !

one more thing is the same that when you are touching you neigbour on a classical slot race... if you touch him, he'll be able to do it too... on digital, if you hit his back, next lap, he can do the same... and the régulation is an human régulation


the only bad thing i think is when we are doing the starting grid : cars are stoped on the track, and often one didn'd saw them and strike them... we should put a obstacle behind the grid when we do it
because that is "nearly" the only way of braking cars


elicend
 

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QUOTE (elicend @ 28 Mar 2004, 11:04)...
(1) well you're right, but i didn't heard before about system which brakes for you.
...

(2) the only bad thing i think is when we are doing the starting grid : cars are stoped on the track, and often one didn'd saw them and strike them... we should put a obstacle behind the grid when we do it
because that is "nearly" the only way of braking cars

...
Thanks again for your replies.

Elicend,

"Merci" for your comments,
(1) As i said before, just imagine because imagination is the first step to create anything, as an electronics device to avoid such impacts. Or, in another words, what do you miss in a digital race?

(2) Well, with digital races you can even create.. how do you say when race starts after the first lap behind the safety car? So such kind of start can be simulated, there's no need to start stopped. Safety car can be driver by anyone but a racer.
 

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QUOTE (Nep72 @ 11 Apr 2004, 14:52)(2) Well, with digital races you can even create.. how do you say when race starts after one turn behind the safety car? So such kind of start can be simulated, there's no need to start stopped. Safet car can be driver by anyone but a racer.
I refer to that as a Rolling Start



Mark.
 

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Hi,
at the 24h race in Eupen, Belgium and at the 24h GT Salzburg the start wwas/will be started with a battery driven pace car.
The pace car will stay on the track for max. 2 laps. Within this 2 laps the pace car will be taken off the track without notice by a member of the race organization. Before that no car is allowed to overtake the pace car.
After the pace car is removed the race is started, so free racing for all!!!!!

Hope that helps,
Nico

24h GT Salzburg
 

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That start sounds great!

IMHO, I think there should be no rules.

Like normal racing at my club, unless someone is going out of there way to knock others off, then go for it. A bit of door banging never hurt anybody... Anyway, it creates another skill to learn when racing digital.

Sounds great fun, I can't wait for my first digital race ( I tried it at Phoenix, t'was a right laff).

Lotus
 

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There is tremendous variance as to how people see digital racing, particularly as to WHO it is aimed at.

The three systems from SCX, Carrera and Scalextric appear to be aimed squarely at the home/toy market. Yet, as is correctly pointed out, the hugely increased likelihood (certainty!) of crashes requires an equally huge increase in applied skills by the users.

This need to learn difficult new skills is the complete opposite of the basic simplicity that is the very essence of what makes slot racing popular. The 'average' home user does NOT want to do anything more complicated than put a car on the track and race the living crap out of it. The 'average' home user isn't interested in developing the skills of a real racing driver, does not possess the reflexes of a real racing driver and most certainly does NOT want his need for speed to be inhibited in any other way than getting round a curve without coming off every time. He hasn't the slightest interest in stop/go penalties assessed by an independent party and his main difficulty will be in finding enough people to race with rather than appointing non-racing marshalls to apply rules that he doesn't want to even know about.

For those very simple and obvious reasons I don't see digital at home as achieving anything other than further fragmenting an existing market. I see its only possible future in organised clubs and, even there, on a very limited basis indeed.

The only realistic way out of the otherwise certain increase in crashing IS to incorporate anti-collision electronics and failure to do this will only shorten the already limited lifespan of a system that may find a place in serious organised racing, but which I believe will otherwise be dead as a dodo in the toy/home market within 1-2 years of release.
 

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in response to the requirements of the homne/toy/toys-r-us market that makes up a big part of slot slaes, as opposed to hobbyists and racers:

Due to scalextrics continued growth in known areas of the slot market, their increased number of sets emphasisng the crash, bash and collission features would make me think that kids and users of slot products as TOYS absolutely love the ability to smash their mates car off the track. So I think as long as the price does not put digital out of the market, it will be a big success in that sector. And that anti collission stuff would severely limit the 'fun' factor for those buyers.

With my limited experience of digital, I would rather not have the anti-shunt and anti-collission systems built into a track for racing either - but I could be wrong. I hope systems like this get propperly tested, or can be switched on and off, before major decisions are made!
 

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Beppe Giannini
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I know zip about the home/toy market, but Astro's comment matches perfectly what Maurizio Ferrari told me - besides, I don't believe you can have meaningful MCPL racing on less than 20 m of track, therefore "crash and bash" would seem to be the main mode there
So, from a marketing standpoint SCX's system may make sense after all, it remains to be seen whether there's enough disposable income around

For "serious"
slot racers, I believe the availability of mass produced (i.e. cheap and reliable) electronics packages will be impossible to ignore : a 2 lane/6 car track equipped with Scalextric's system will be cheaper and take up less space than a normal 6 laner, but mainly racing will be much more exciting

The "only" snag I fear is the disruptive effect of crashes - as far as I can see, there's no way shunts can be prevented on a conventional track, so IMHO at least collisions on LCs should be taken care of by the system
 

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some great comments in this thread I think

If we talk about kids and slotcar racing at home. I am sure that the vast market is focused upon slotracing using one or two sets as a basis. This means that the size of the race track in most cases will be rather small. Also I believe that most of the sold sets will have a rather short life-span - when talking about their use.. e.g. I do think that many of the home tracks will only be used during a limited period of time - due to lack of space, lack of interest etc. As I see it this has been a phenomena for many years and is one major factor in the influence for why the products are they way they are (e.g. limited in technology, quality and development compared to other modern hobby / game / toy products).

The major manufacturers of slotracing products have not had to be faced with a technology and digitally competent competition (yet). So the current 'digital' systems are really extremely 'simple' if compared to cutting edge digital technology not to mention any 'smart' implementations or 'intelligent' cars. Todays (existing) digital technology (for toys and games) is much more developed and gives much more options than any of the current proposed systems (carrera, SCX and Scalextric) even gives hopes of being able to implement in the future. But as we all know there is a learning curve - and in our beloved slotcar manufacturer case the digital one is particularly steep. Basically they do not have the competencies available yet. I also think that they do not seem to have the visions either. The only way this situation will change is if the market suddenly becomes technology driven - could ofcourse happen if a third party manufacturer (digital specialist) jumped the bandwagon of slotcar accessories.

The other main point with the current market as I see it is that a sizeable number of sets that are being used by children are used in at least two different ways. 1) Some kids love to drive their cars - and some are as careful with their cars as adult collectors - no scratches allowed. 2) some kids do not care much about 'driving' the experience is focused on spectacular crashes etc. In my experience this is the case with most any kind of toys - not only slotcars. Anyway - the point is that this will most probably have an impact on how digital systems will be 'appreciated'. I can see there being a great fascination and love for these systems among those kids whose main interest is crash and bang kind of racing. It seems to me to be difficult to avoid crashes with the current proposals and therefore there might be a limited interest for those who wish to avoid to practice stunts on their tracks.

Anyway - I can see one more possible use of the new systems. Run the tracks as you would normally - e.g. one car one lane, without using the 'overtaking' part of the technology - but still use the digital systems for all other purposes - e.g. pitstops, alternative and switchable layouts etc... At least for me this sounds like a very interesting option.

//peter
 

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QUOTE (peter @ 12 Apr 2004, 15:17)Anyway - I can see one more possible use of the new systems. Run the tracks as you would normally - e.g. one car one lane, without using the 'overtaking' part of the technology - but still use the digital systems for all other purposes - e.g. pitstops, alternative and switchable layouts etc... At least for me this sounds like a very interesting option.
I tend to agree with this view Peter. IMHO the idea of a fully working pit lane, either on sectional or routed track
is a definite plus! You would still have YOUR lane as it were, but that lane would still be able to access a pit area. Just think model railway sidings



Mark.
 

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Brian Ferguson
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That's pretty much the direction I've taken in planning my next track, Diff! Routed, with active pit lane.

Keeping my mind open (and my options), waiting to see the direction that digital systems take. If the electronic circuitry and the mechanical circuits are separate, then I will incorporate LCs too, since they can be either used or not.

Although a bit crude, I just finished a working prototype of my lane switch. LC switches would be virtually identical. A couple of pics, if you care to look at crudeness
, are here, about half way down the page.
 

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Fergy, you know me, I'll always look at crudeness!
To be honest, I was a little disappointed. Your article and the diagrams were anything but crude
a great explanation. I hope you see the idea through to fruition!

All the best
Mark.
 
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