[Hobby]

Hi All.
As Malcolm is away for a week or so, and to make sure the entry criterior is clear...your entry fee PAID is the only way to confirm your entry.
Looking at the list, there are still plenty of entries up for grabs... just send the cheque to the published address with your name and Early Birds entry marked on it, and you will be on the list as a confirmed entry.
First Paid, first served.
Regards Bill.

 

[tifosi]

After speaking to Malcolm yesterday It appears I had not sent a cheque, now rectified, posted 1/2 hour ago...

When I spoke to Phil at Wolves he was threatening to 'tweak' the EB rules a bit and outlaw post war rear engined cars like the Porsche 718 and the lotus 18, I can't see this in the rules so is my Porsche 718 good to go?

Peter

 

[Slotcarmann]

Hi Malcolm/Bill

Cheque posted today for Mike Buss, Mike Dove, Andy White and me.

Cheers
Dave

 

[Hobby]

Hi Peter.
The rules for this years event are the same as last years.
I thought the Porsche only ran in F2 during 1960? It then ran as a full F1 with the introduction of the 1.5L formula of 1961.
Perhaps some of our astute motor racing historians can confirm.
Regards Bill.

 

[tifosi]

Hi Bill, Glad to hear that there is no change to the rules.

And yes, you are quite right, the 718 WAS an F2 car until the 1.5 formula and then it ran as an F1 until the 804 replaced it (although it continued until 1961 with some privateer entries).

HOWEVER

back in the day F2 cars were used to make up the numbers and my car is actually a replica of the factory 718 driven by Wolfgang Von trips at the 1959 German GP at Avus (I also have pics of the same car at the Solitude GP) so in my humble opinion it makes the cut for Early Birds, just as the Ferrari F500 F2 car has in the past.

Picture scanned in from the excellent, if massive, 'Porsche - portrait of a legend' Ingo Seiff's opus on the subject of all things Porsche.

regards Tif

 

[Hobby]

Hi Peter.
My (unofficial) thoughts are, no to F2 rear engined models. The early Ferrari F2 500 was a 2 litre front engined model, quite close in looks and engine capacity to the 'normal' F1 2.5L of the day. One reason Phil was keen to outlaw genuine 2.5L rear engine F1 models that ran right at the end of that Formula, is they look near identical to the later 1.5L models and rather out of place in a mainly front motor Class.
I will discuss this matter with Phil and Malcolm, and we will post an 'Official' ruling on this thread.
Regards Bill.

 

[tifosi]

QUOTE My (unofficial) thoughts are, no to F2 rear engined models.

Aha, so you are changing the rules

So what about the Lotus 18? Is that OK, it has certainly run in the past EBs?

Whatever, you know me, if the rules say no, then thats the rules and i will abide by them. I presume prewar rea engined are still OK? I was planning on dusting off and updating my Auto union....

 

[Hobby]

Hi Peter.
Not changing the rules...interpreting them.
If it had a 2.5L engine and ran as an F1 up to 1960 then its OK. All the Lotus, Cooper and BRM rear engine cars were F1 2.5L. If Mac had been asked about a F2 Porsche rear engine model entry, you could speculate as to what his answer might have been!
No one has run a Porsche to my knowledge, at any Early Bird meeting. If you look back through the EB threads, in the early years, Mac allowed Voiturettes and F2, but later decided to exclude them...for various reasons. The Ferrari F2 500 that Phil has passed judgement on looks, to all intents, just like the majority of early 50's F1 cars. The Porsche does have the looks and stance of the first F1 1.5L cars as do some of the 1960 lotus/Coopers...but these were full 2.5L F1 models.
However, Phil and Malcolm may not agree with my assessment, so wait and see the final verdict.
regards Bill

 

[tifosi]

QUOTE Whatever, you know me, if the rules say no, then thats the rules and i will abide by them. I presume prewar rea engined are still OK? I was planning on dusting off and updating my Auto union....

as I said, whatever

 

[ralph]

Bill/ Malcolm, just a few unsolicited thoughts re:Earlybirds ,1) Mac was right to outlaw voiturettes,after Coop showed why with his Maser A6GCS ,one glance at the track dimensions should suffice. 2) If anyone is optimistic enough to take You,Dick,Eddie ,Mick,Robbie et al on with a scale Cooper highline or Porker 718 then jolly good luck to them.Methinks they,ll need it.3) I feel eligible cars should have actually have raced in period which rules out the rear-engined Alfa but keeps the R/E Vanwall.4) Chuck out the silver arrows and Bimotore etc. lets keep to 2 1/2 litre cars if we must have scale tracks rather than the much more sensible max width.

I,ll get my hat and coat shall I?

 

[superhornets]

Hi Guys
My two pennorth for what its worth
I believed that the rules had ruled out voiturettes
If that is the case then that rear engined porsche should not be allowed to race as it is an F2 car ,and they are voiturettes
The ferrari 500 raced in a period where F2 ,(the voiturette formula) for two years 52/53 became Formula 1 and raced for the FIA formula 1 World championship
The same could be said for Gordini ,maserati a6, HWM ,connaught et all
THe rear engined alfa never raced ,,but was designed as a voiturette and although that class was elevated to F1 after the war the alfa never raced and therefore remains a voiturette
Re the Rear engined vanwall .it didn,t race till `1961 so it is out of period any way and therefore can't race

Cheers tony

 

[Phil.Insull]

Hi Guys,
I've spoken to Malcolm tonight and the decision is no to the rear engined F2 cars such as the 718 but ok for 2.5 litre F1 cars such as the cooper. The reason the F500 and similar 1952-53 front engined F2 cars are allowed is pretty much as Tony and Bill have already alluded to. Firstly they dont look out of place being front engined machines and secondly for these two years F2 became Grandprixs top formula as there was insufficient competitive genuine F1 machinery available following the withdrawl of Alfa Romeo.
Personally I wanted to make E-B a front engined only meeting as I feel the coopers and lotus 18 of 1959-60 really marked the begining of a different era, I also wanted to allow proper single seater voiturettes such as the ERA's (not wide bodied stripped out sports cars like the maserati A6) as they helped pack out the grids in the late forties and early 50's grand prix meetings and you certainly would not be getting a performance advantage using a pre-war designed ERA but it was felt for this year that we didn't want to change to much too soon so we left things pretty much alone except for metricizing the dimensions rather than working in old Imperial measurements.
I also personally feel the Auto Unions, Bi-Motors and pre-1939 Mercs would be better suited to the Brooklands type 20's - 30's event rather than being allowed in E-B but that's just my opinion.
Cheers
Phil

 

[Mikewall]

Hi Malcolm
I have just had a look at the confirmed entry page and notice my name is missing. I sent cheque/entry on 4th November,
Have checked bank statement and cheque has gone through OK. Can you confirm I am in please.
Mike

 

[Phil.Insull]

Hi Mike,
Malc is on holiday at the moment so he won't see your posting - I'm sure it's an oversight on his list as I know yours was one of the names he mentioned had booked for EB when we were discussing it the other week so don't worry - just send him a p.m. for when he gets back and he'll sort it out.
Cheers
Phil

 

[superhornets]

Hi Guys
One of the cars i could bring to early birds is my 1939 multi union
is that car eligible ,if its not I wont waste any time prepping it for the event
It was known more as a brooklands car but did have success at road circuits like donnington and phoenix park
What do you reckon?

Cheers tony

 

[tifosi]

Please confirm that the ERA is NOT allowed before I do any more work on the car!

I must say that I can see every bit of logic in not allowing the Porsche 718 and NO LOGIC in then allowing the Lotus 18/cooper T51 as Phil points out these cars were technically advanced and belong with the later F1/GP cars...

I guess I will just have to get a new Lotus 18 body for the Porsche

Shame about the GT models ERA though....

 

[Phil.Insull]

Tif,
Under the current E-B rules the ERA is not allowed, but the highline Cooper & Lotus 18 are - I wanted to change this but was over-ruled for this years event. It would be interesting to find out how many participants feel that in future E-B should be for front engined single seaters that participated in championship Grands Prix (including the 1952-53 F2 Grand prix seasons) from 1950 to 1960 inclusive.
Tony,
As Malcolm asked me to adress any technical queries that arose while he was away I'm going to say no to the 1939 Multiunion II as this really was developed mainly for Brooklands and therefore belongs in Bill's Brooklands Classic later in the year rather than this one.
Regards
Phil

 

[Mick Kerr]

Hi Phil,
If the Lotus 18 remains eligible then so should the Low Line Cooper, the T53.
These cars both raced in most of the Grand Prix of 1960, but not before, against front engined Ferraris, Maseratis, Aston Martins etc.
If you exclude all rear engined cars that must also include the Auto Unions and the Bugatti 251.
What I will say about this is that all the later rear engined cars are comparatively small when compared to the front engined cars they raced against and, as slot cars, they are therefore at a disadvantage.
I really can't see the logic behind such a ban unless, of course, you are also going to insist that all front engined cars have their electric motors positioned in the same place as engine of the real car. Fine by me if you do that.

I say 'don't fix what isn't broken'.
Earlybird has been the most popular 'Classic Race Meeting' on the calendar for many years because the entrants like the rules as they are.

I would actually be in favour of re-admitting the voiturettes.
They were banned after Mac and Phil Smith had a big disagreement about a car Phil had built.
I could never understand the logic of this ban as these cars made up a large proportion of the Grand Prix grids before 1950 and were actually the basis for the first 'Formula One' rules established in 1948.
An Alfa 158, as the obvious example, is a voiturette but is currently only allowed to race with it's 1950/51 body style, but is not eligible with it's earlier body style (the chassis remained the same).

Cheers.
Mick.

 

[tifosi]

QUOTE how many participants feel that in future E-B should be for front engined single seater's

That sounds like a plan to me Phil at least it is unambiguous and therefore easy to administrate...

 

[superhornets]

Hi Phil /pete/mick
The decision on the multi union is fine
The situation with the other cars is becoming somewhat surreal
Pete .The reason why the porsche is banned is because in the time limit that these rules encompass ie pre 1960 the porsche was only ever a Formula 2 car ,not a Grand prix car whereas the cooper t51 /t53 and the lotus 18 were all full 2.5 litre GP cars
The voiturette situation is more murky
For sure when the ERAs were raced in the 30s they were voiturettes however after WW2 when the formula for f1 changed to 1.1/2 litre S/c and 4.1/2 litre unsupercharged then all those 1930s voiturettes became full F1 cars
So if you are going to let alfa 158s ,maserati 4cls run then logically you should let ERAs run
after all they actually took part in the 1950 monaco GP.
The alfa 512 in addition to being a rear engined car

it too was designed as a Voiturette but since it never raced at all it must forever remain a voiturette ,not having had the chance to make the big time and take part in the F! races .
Incidentally phil i have no axe to grind one way or the other on this as I dont have ERAs or any other voiturettes for this event

Cheers tony