[beardy56]

With all the subject matter being raised in the various F1 topics on here I thought I would start a general topic for any this not related to a particular race.

I came across this a few days ago

The 1965 Dutch GP.

And it just goes to show that some things haven't really changed. This race was just about halfway through the season and Clark is already just about confirmed as champion and the gaps between the leading cars at the end? Raymond Baxter calls this a close and exciting race, wonder what he would make of current F1 races?

This was Jim Clark's 5th win out of six races, he also won the next race in Germany. The only one of the first six races he didn't win he didn't take part in, Monaco, which was won by Graham Hill in a BRM who won the next two races after Germany with Jackie Stewart and the Hill again. Honda broke the mould with their first win in the final race in Mexico with Richie Ginter.

Championship :-

1st Jim Clark 54 Points (all his 6 points scores were wins and all counted, best 6 finishes only counted)

2nd Graham Hill 40 points

3rd Jackie Stewart 33 points

4th Dan Gurney 25 points

5th John Surtees 17 points

6th Lorenzo Bandini 13 points

7th Richie Ginther 11 points

8th Mike Spence & Bruce McLaren 10 points

another seven drivers scored points and after that another 24 drives competed in at lease one of the ten races that year.

That's 40 drivers competing in total and another 11 who attempted to qualify.

The Constructors championship was ( only the 1st placed car in each team counted)

1st Team Lotus - Lotus-Climax 54 points (Jim Clark, Mike Spence and two other drivers )

2nd Owen Racing Organisation - BRM 45 points (Graham Hill & Jackie Stewart)

3rd Brabham Racing Organisation - Brabham-Climax 27 points (Jack Brabham, Dan Gurney, Denny Hulme and 1 other driver)

4th Ferrari - Ferrari 26 points (Lorenzo Bandini, John Surtess (8 races), Pedro Rodriguez (2 races) and 3 other drivers)

5th Cooper Car Comapny - Cooper_Climax 14 points (Bruce McLaren and Jochen Rindt)

6th Honda R & D Company - Honda 11 points (Ronnie Bucknum & Richie Ginther)

7th RRC Walker Racing Team - Brabham-BRM 5 points (Jo Siffert also Jo Bonnier in a Brabham - Climax)

8th Reg Parnell Racing - Lotus--BRM 2 points Richard Attwood, Innes Ireland, Mike hailwood, Chris Amon and 2 other drivers)

with 3 other teams racing and another 3 teams that did not qualify for any races.

 

[beardy56]

I wasn't picking on any driver or team, I had found the youtube clip and when watching it things just seemed very familiar .

As I said in one of the other threads as a team comes up with a innovation they tend to dominate for a while. I also said about the fact that Lotus would probably have dominated the mid 60's if it wasn't for reliability, which to be fair also effected a lot of teams and hindered a lot of good drivers.

Engines don't blow very often these days because they are made to last a set number of races and will only run at near full power in qually 3. You can bet your bottom dollar the the likes of Clark, Hill, Brabham, McLaren along with Prost, Hunt, Lauda, Mansell, Villeneuve and all the other drivers before fuel limits came in would be pushing to their and the cars limit for a good part of the race.

I wonder what most of the older drivers would make of having to cruise around well with in their's and the cars full limits.

I see they are talking about bringing refueling back for 2021, yes please, by all means limit tank size but please no limit on the amount of fuel a car can use. Lets see F1 cars racing at the drivers and the cars limits. Although I think the cost saving measures will mean less engines during a season which will mean running with an even greater safety margin on the engines power and rev's.

F1 is meant to be about technical innovation and out the box ideas which the current rules and cost saving prevent, IMO.

 

[beardy56]

Thing in the 60's was as teams innovated they tended to beat them self a lot of the time. Taking 1965 as an example there was about 70 retirements in 10 races. The top 5 in the championship only all completed 1 race together and the top 6 didn't even manage this.

Although we have had 23 retirements this season in the same number of races the top 5 have only failed to finish 1 race and so have the top six, both different races.

Whilst we don't want cars breaking like they did in the 60's I think we need to have the engines pushed harder and have some more blown engines, how many of the early Turbo cars failed to finish because the turbo blow?

Maybe giving the teams a free choice of tyres for the whole race would mix things up a bit. Maybe one of the lower order teams could get through a whole race on the hardest compound and gain a points finish.

I've always been a F1 fan and I think always will be but they need to rip up the part of the rule book that stops teams from innovating. Lotus innovated so did Williams and McLaren and when they did they all did very well. Now it just seems to be down to money and engine power.

For 2021 lets tear up the rules for tyre choice, fuel limits (just a tank size), and wings (maybe just an overall maximum width) and a lot more freedom in aerodynamics. Let the designers decide what the cars wings and overall airflow needs to be. Wings could change for different circuits. Yes some of these could increase costs but there is also the chance for the lower budget teams to build a simpler car that uses design innovation to improve performance. I a team develops a new innovation don't just ban it let the other teams catch up. That's what F1 should be about, cutting edge development.

I've just had a look at the 1966 season, only 9 races with the best 5 results counting. Only 2 drivers finished 6 races, no one else managed more than 4 finishes and no team got a car home in every race. At least the points system was designed to work with a high number of retirements,

Don't think, cost aside, that I would go to another F1 race because unless you are in the right place you won't see any racing. I've only been to 3 GP the first being the 1974 Austrian and the group I was with picked the correct spot to be in the middle of the Texaco Schikane as the cars started to park up opposite us and go off at the start of this section. I also attended the british GP in 1980 at Brands and 81 at Silverstone.

Now talking about reliability 1981 at Silverstone 24 starters and only 8 finished the race with only Watson and Reutemann on the same lap. i was in the stand opposite the old pit exit so again a go view.
And the year before at Brands I was somewhere between Clearways and Stirling and could see the cars exiting from Westfield and coming down the hill and flying past my spot and only the first 3 on the same lap.

Now that could be why we remember these races as being exciting with lots of overtaking, but most of it would have been backmarkers being overtaken.
this was Bands 1980 3 cars on winners lap, 3 cars 1 lap down, 2 cars 2 laps down, 3 cars 3 laps down, 1 car 4 laps down and the final finisher 7 laps down.
Now that's a lot of overtaking even if a position didn't change in the race.

Sorry for the long post, but please comment, shoot me down in places, but most of all lets hear your thoughts of what you would like to see for 2021.

 

[beardy56]

My point about reliability is that the cars and engines aren't being over stressed in modern F1. If the cars had been running at 90% of maximum performance in the 60's and 70's how many more cars would have finished each race ?

I fear the the cost cap for 2021+ will only stiffel innovation in the top teams and although it may allow the smaller teams to catch up this may only make the races even more boring as everyone ends up with level machinery. We can only hope that different teams spend there development in different areas of technology.

 

[beardy56]

The drag strip at the last corner seemed to do a good job.

In the days when it was dangerous or even deadly to hit anything at the side of the track there was plenty to hit. Now when the cars can withstand an impact without exploding there is nothing at most tracks for them to hit.

Gravel traps are ok so long as the gravel is soft and traps the car, but there seems to be to many that can just be driven through.

With modern day electronics it should be possible to place a sensor in the car with a activator running around the track. Cross this electronic line to many times and get an automatic drive through. Yes these could stop some overtaking moves but the would they try the same move on a street circuit?

For very different reasons we've had three good races in a row, can it last? Do we need Max to have a poor start in every race?

 

[beardy56]

I was wondering about the F1 rule book and came across this

https://www.racefans.net/2018/01/24/divide-and-misrule-how-formula-ones-regulations-are-written/

I was just interested in the 1965 rules, simple and to the point, until I read the rest of the article.

The 2020 F1 Sporting Regulations are 71 pages and the 2020 F1 Technical regulations are 110 pages long, and no I haven't read them.

 

[beardy56]

I thought a jumped start in F1 was was black and white. No did he, didn't he as there is a sensor in the car and track. If the sensor goes off it's a jumped start if it doesn't then all's fine.

I'm surprised Red Bull haven't had a penalty for there slow get away's and being a danger to other cars.

 

[beardy56]

I don't have a problem with just seeing F1 highlights, in fact for some races I think they are an advantage. I do have a very big problem with the restrictions imposed on C4 this year.

TV commentary has never been the same in the UK since Murray Walker retired. His knowledge of the sport was first class but you were always waiting for his little goof. I think the most entertaining commentary team was Murray Walker and James Hunt. Murray had all the knowledge and james just called it as he saw it, if a driver did something stupid he called him stupid.

Some of us can remember when there was little or no TV coverage of F1, we would probably just get some very short highlights of the British GP and may be a race like Monaco and that would be it. A lot of the race highlights on youtube, the ones with Raymond Baxter, are all we would get to see. I believe the race that really started the global TV F1 was the Hunt and Lauda showdown in Japan, which was why the race was finally ran because of all the TV companies that had paid to show the race live.

In case I'm wrong as Murray once said "I don't make mistakes. I make prophecies which immediately turn out to be wrong."

 

[beardy56]

Came across a site of F1 drivers stats and just for interest I compiled the following

Champions by most wins

Hamilton will almost certainly end up topping this chart

Now adjusted to % of completed races only

but he's got a long way to go before he tops this one

and now adjusted for podium finishes

Again can't see Hamilton not topping this one.

This has been adjusted to show % of podiums for completed races

Don't think any modern driver will top this one.

And this one is interesting as the most unreliable period appears to be the 70's and 80's

That's it for now.

if I ever get the time might have to do it by driver not just champions.

 

[beardy56]

Don't forget the F1 season was a lot shorter back then so they had the time to do other events. Also if you relied on a share of the prize money you would need to do lots of races. Their total race season probably wasn't much different to a current F1 driver.

Mind you where does this put Alonso?

 

[beardy56]

From what I've read about the rules Mercedes can say no to Red Bull / AT as can Ferrari as they are both suppling customer engines but Renault would have no choice and would have to supply Red Bull /AT as the have no engine customers. Interesting though if Renault agreed to supply AT would that mean that they could then say no to Red Bull?

 

[beardy56]

I was thinking more on the lines that if Renault agree to supply AT they could then say no to Red Bull who would be much more of a challenge to Renault than AT would be. Could this mean that in the end id no other engine becomes available would would AT have to be shutdown to ensure Red Bull get an engine. Or does the governing body have to step in and force thing through to prevent the possible lose of 2 teams.

 

[beardy56]

Perez and Hulkenburg both deserve seats somewhere, anywhere. or will Ferrari force 1 or 2 of their young drivers on them?

 

[beardy56]

Good drivers can win in a average team and lift a poor team, but never mind.

 

[beardy56]

I think Red Bull are only looking for a good No.2 with all the past trouble they have had with 2 good drivers. Williams I think have given in to Vettel as I think he belives he can beat Stroll but Perez ???? Think Perez would be good for any team he joined with or without sponsors. Hulkenberg I think is better than a lot od the drivers currently with a seat, Hulkenberg average 5 points per race (I .haven't counted the British GP), Stroll 5.7 (excludes last race), but money counts.

 

[beardy56]

I'm looking forward to the day I'm forced to drive all electric, not garage, no drive way and double yellow lines on the street out side. Parking in the next side road if lucky but has been known to be a 5 min walk from car to home How long a charging cable can you use?

 

[beardy56]

Since Bernie took over F1 team orders have always been there, may be not always obeyed but they have been there. Just look at Ferrari and Schumacher. Only difference now is that they are in the open.

The team position is the most important thing for any team so you are going to make sure your beast driver has the newest upgrades first and the best chance of getting maximum points for the team. You just hope then that you have a good number two.

I think Racing Point have shoot themselves in the foot here as they have let the top driver go and now will have an average driver and may be a good driver instead of maybe two good drivers.

 

[beardy56]

It's not just Mercedes before we had Red Bull, Ferrari, Williams and McLaren. The only real difference in the 60's was reliability . But there is still lots of action going on in the from 4th to 20th place.

 

[beardy56]

If you look at the crowds at any F1 race there never seems to be a shortage of Lewis supporters. The true fans know the greats.

The only drivers I can say I've cheered on for every race are Hunt, Mansell, Damon and Button. At other time I just like to see some of the underdogs do well in a race.

I would put Lewis up there with the greats, and I think he showed just how good he was going to be the first year with Alonso.

It's not just the car, if it was Bottas would never be so far behind Lewis over a race distance. Greatness is also about producing a result when it's needed an this is something Lewis can do and does all the time.

 

[beardy56]

Will be glad when all the cost caps are in place and prize money spread more fairly. How can any team drop their best driver by a mile, one down two gone?