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Allan Wakefield
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Discussion Starter · #1 ·

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Well done on the review, Swiss and Nuro!
A labour of love indeed.
Unfortunately, I could give no more than a swift onceover at this point - got to go slot racing though, for once, I'd rather stay and read!

I'll look forward to a much more thorough read in about eight hours time but, once again, VERY well done!
 

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Russell Sheldon
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Thanks for the review, Allan and Nuro. Being a Ford GT fan, despite any shortcomings I will get the Fly versions, to add to my Scalextric ones... along with the Monogram, Cox, Atlas, Marusan, K&B and Strombecker versions that I have...

Some time ago I was having a discussion with Franco Varani, who maintained the sadly now defunct Motor Racing Retro web-site on the subject of Ford GT type numbers, that other Ford GT fans may find interesting:

"Do you really want to talk about GT40 naming conventions??... well why not? I could do with the diversion and I suppose it follows on nicely from the teachings I recently received from Anders Hedborg on the Lola T70 and all it marks and derivations (which were T70, MkII, MkIII, MkIIIB, which were all spyders, and the coupe Mk3GT with the same chassis as the spyders, and the Mk3B/GT which had the T160 chassis, plus a one off T70P spyder which was a T160 with a DFV).

It's amazing the amount of info you get when you post a few pics of Can-Am cars.... Anders, by the way, is the proud owner of the Sid Taylor-Brabham/Hulme T70 Mk3GT featured on the 1967 Sport front page index. Unrestored, it still has the hole in the floor which happened when Frank Gardner had an off road excursion during the '69 Kyalami 9 Hours!

But onto the GT40, which was more of a project name than an actual type of car. Here's how I sussed it out, but remember, I use other peoples info and have no first hand knowledge of GT40's other than seeing one in the Doune museum several years ago. It was dark green with the racing number 40, maybe the Sutcliffe / Redman car from 66 Spa, but I can't be sure of that.

There were 13 original prototype GT chassis, numbers GT/101 to GT/112 (there were 2 chassis numbered GT/110, but that's another story as this chassis number tended to be used as a project number for Ford's use rather than an individual car).

GT/101 to GT/107 were coupes, and all originally called simply "Ford GT". I have referred to all works car in '65 as this because I cannot find any period publications which call them other than that.

GT/106 & GT/107 were rebuilt with 7 litre engines as Ford MkII's for Le Mans '65.

At the same time, or thereabouts, the definite shape of the nose was adopted and appeared at Le Mans and the name "GT40", which the press had called the car, was adopted by Ford on all "production" chassis. I have called all these cars "GT40", which were numbered from GT40P/1000 to whatever they went to. (Note : Some of these cars were built as MkII's but only for Ford's use)

Of the remaining original prototype chassis, GT/108 to GT/112 were built as roadsters and whether by accident or design, I have came across several period publications which describe the Roadsters as "Ford GT-X1". This was the name the McLaren built GT/110 was entered under and it could be that the press of the time simply dubbed all roadsters as such.

Ford rebuilt GT/110, using another chassis into MkII roadster spec and then won the '66 Sebring race with it.... I think the original GT/110 chassis lay around for some time until it was discovered that it was originally imported from JWA with the excise duty still to be paid on it. With only a "pay-up or cut-up" option available, a welder was put to work, the chassis cut up and buried in concrete and where there now stands a mutli-storey building.

The Sutcliffe chassis, GT/112, was the thirteenth and last of the original chassis and built to Roadster GT-X1 spec. It stayed like this for some time until a plastic roof was added to it for '67 (see the '67 Spa gallery). It was the press who dubbed this car the "Ford P40". It was rebuilt for '68 as proper GT40 with standard bodywork and nose, called as such with no reference to it being either a GT-X1 or a P40. I prefer to call it an X1 up to '68 as adding a square meter of plastic shouldn't really justify creating a new name. It sounds pretty but it isn't really correct.

More erratum on GT40. It really all started around the late 50's and early 60's with the growing American sports-car scene which was producing useful characters and racers such as Phil Hill, Ginther, Gurney, Shelby and Jim Hall to name a few. For the most part imported European machinery was the thing to have, but by the early 60's the call was in for something more American and home-grown. Chaparral, Chevrolet's racing division in all but name, had been making steady but innovative progress. And Ford were looking to join the game.

The idea was for a "GT" programme and several concepts were put on the table. The earliest incarnation of the GT project I can find is the Mustang Mach I which was shown to the public at Watkins Glen in '62:


http://photo.starblvd.net/Russell_Sheldon/...&pg=9&ro=2&co=1

"Although a roadster with a puny 2.5 litre V4, it does betray several design elements and styling cues which appear on the original GT/101. Whilst the Ford styling team were putting together the Mustang, Eric Broadley had built the Lola Mk6GT, mid-engined with a big Ford V8, and it was exactly the concept Ford were looking for and Broadley joined the Ford GT Design team.

In 1963 the racing departments were starting to take shape. In the States, Shelby American was formed and Ford went GT racing with the Cobra-Ford. Lola's Mk6GT did Le Mans and other events and acted as an actual development car under racing conditions. Much of what was learned went into the new Ford GT, with Ford building mock-ups of what the new Ford GT would look like and showing it to the press late '63. There was one other development hack, based on a Lotus 40 with a 4.7 Ford V8 and given to Holman & Moody for testing purposes. Quite what they were testing is unclear. Engine development was being done on the Cobra's and in NASCAR of all places, and given the cruel and evil nature of the Lotus 30/40 design, I doubt if it was chassis development, not with the excellent Lola Mk 6 at hand.

Anyway, true to form, the car was wrecked when AJ Foyt failed to get to grips with it. The chassis then went AWOL, presumed missing for ever, but guess what, it's turned up.. at least, I think it has. It's been rebuilt but looks very 1963'ish and very original with period patina. The rear engine cover is very much a silhouette of the real thing. But it's not a wreck.. which is why I say I think it may be the Holman & Moody test hack.

I once spotted an early picture of this car in some American child's comic which came my way as a kid. It was the same time as John Surtees was winning the World title, I was six, but the car was called the "Ford 40GT" and was on test some where. It would also be around the time when the original Ford GT was shown to the pubic. Perhaps the instigation of the "GT40" tag? Who knows but interesting to speculate.


Thanks and Ciao
Franco"
 

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Senior Slot Car Mechanic
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Hey Swiss,nice review.

However,it looks like you converted 15"to mm as the wheel diameter.A 15"wheel is actually around 16 and 3/8"in diameter.All wheels are actually 1-3/8"larger than the stated Dia.

Also,on the model wheels,you need to measure them as close to the rim edge as possible.If you measure them by the Rib,they will be larger by the draft angle necessary to get them out of the mold.
 

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Very well done sir...my hat is off to both of you on your hard work involved! Great information and photos to go with it!

Thanks for sharing it at my house too


Harry
 
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Good review, and I like Russell's article.

I road test the GTD factory demonstrator for a newpaper article it was their sprint and circuit car but road legal, and I used the army tank testing grounds for some 0-100 tests it was a very exciting car to drive, more really like riding a wild animal than driving a car, as it had a competition clutch fitted. The only car I have driven with a righthand gear change.

RR
 

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QUOTE The only car I have driven with a righthand gear change.
All left hookers normally have gear change on the right and it's amazingly off putting! I have a left hand drive Alfa - soon get used to it though.


Bet you enjoyed the GT40!!!!
 
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True But how many RHD cars do? I got a picture of the GT40 on the wall in my dinning room. My Wife was my photographer for the day and co-driver.

RR
 

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Er?

Chaps? No comparison timings?

Surely shome mishtake?

And did the hubs stay on while you played? This aspect sounds very worrying. I've not suffered much from departing wheels with Fly cars but I know a lot of folks have done in the past.

I think we should be told.
 

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Allan Wakefield
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5,857 Posts
Discussion Starter · #10 ·
No comp timings as I don't have a set up at the moment, although Nuro could get them I guess - Nuro?

No, no wheels off but with only 1 of my 3 true enough to risk running.....
 

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Allan Wakefield
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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Sounds good to me Thomas! Will phone tomorrow.
 

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Allan Wakefield
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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
Sorry Al, you lost me...

I measured the wheels at the rim edge not the thicker part for seating the tyres. Without checking myself, are you saying the measurements are wrong? or the figure given for the 1/32 conversion for 15 inches?
 

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Senior Slot Car Mechanic
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15"wheels ARE NOT 15",they are 16.375"aproximately.


Go measure the Swiss daily transporter in your driveway(Er,they do have driveways over there Eh!??)if you don't believe me.


All wheels are approximately one and three eighths of an inch larger in diameter than the stated dimension.The measurement being taken at the BOTTOM of the Bead Trough.


Anything more you need to know about wheels,just ask.
 

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Allan Wakefield
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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Clear as mud!


Actually, I think I might be getting as glimmer there - thanks Al - erm - I think.

Ok -wheel sizes right or not I spent some time with Thomas last night testing a couple of cars on a New Carrera Set of 8.3M length - These are the results..

Cars tested:

Fly GT40
Scaley GT40
Fly Porsche 917
Ferrari 512s Coda Lunga



Tests done 'straight out of box' with and without magnets but no weight.
Test voltage 14.8V and 100 laps of this circuit for each car on each lane.



Magnet test -

Car - inside lane time - outside lane time

Scaley GT40 - 2.99 - 3.13
Fly GT40 - 3.37 - 3.41
Fly Porsche 917 - 3.56 - 3.69
Fly 512 Coda Lunga - 3.22 - 3.54

No Magnet test -

Scaley GT40 - 3.70 - 4.33
Fly GT40 - 3.83 - 4.50
Fly Porsche 917 - 3.99 - 4.07
Fly 512 Coda Lunga - 3.71 - 4.13

So the Scalextric GT40 has it on handling and speed but the Fly GT40 did not fare as badly as it looked like it would.
A few things should be pointed out here though..

Fly GT40 guide locks at maximum turmn to the right and has to be forced back inline.
Fly GT40 lost its offside wheel after 248 laps and after only 133 laps the windscreen wiper spun loose.
I did notice that the front air scoop seems to be designed to come away!



I saw this in the initial look over but didn't think more of it then missed it in the test.. The outcome is that you can work on the front axle, guide and cables without removing the chassis - an excellent move! especially if you like fitting Slot.It replacement guides




Guess which of the two above has it's air scoop removed, and which one fell off after 430 odd laps (NOT in a crash!
)
 

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Senior Slot Car Mechanic
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Swiss,it's easy.Go take a look at the wheels on your 1:1 grocery getter(and take a Tapemeasure with you.They do have them in Cuckoo clock land I hope.)

Read what it says on the tires,14" or 15" I'm guessin.Now take the aformentioned Tapemeasure,and measure the diameter of the wheel.

If you do it correctly,you will see that a Wheel with a 14"tire on it measures about 15 and three eights,and a Wheel with a 15" tire on it measures about 16 and three eights.

All rims are measured at THE BOTTOM OF THE BEAD,AND NOT ON THE OVERALL ACTUAL DIAMETER OF THE WHEEL.

What I am getting at,is that you gave the dimension of the 1:1 GT40 rim as being 12.5mm,and it should be13.5mm
 

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Thanks for that effort crew!

Now of course I have to test the same way...which means..(ahem) I would need that Scaley GT40. I could not possibly use any of mine


Now who could get me one??? Hmmmm
 

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DT
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Thanks BWA for the advice. Review is updated.


I glued in my bonnet on the Fly GT-40 before racing as it was moving a bit. It didn't look as though it would come out, but it would have added to the rattle. I'm not planning on any under-hood work on mine so it can be glued shut.
 

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Allan Wakefield
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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
Im there Al I promise!


QUOTE Swiss,it's easy.Go take a look at the wheels on your 1:1 grocery getter(and take a Tapemeasure with you.They do have them in Cuckoo clock land I hope.)

Yeah we got tape measures but only the modern decimal ones, they had sold out of the iceage ones and gave me a VERY funny look when I asked


Anyway - my rims say they are '255/45 R 18 99V' but you proved your point and I is wiser! thank you!!

 
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