[McLaren]

Yay... someone commented on my review...

Mclaren

MOD MESSAGE
This is the continuation of a debate that started with McLaren's Review of Fly Alfa 156
Now moved to a more appropriate home in the interests of both the original review and this interesting argument!

 

[darainbow]

QUOTE (Stradale @ 25 Aug 2004, 14:32)QUOTE (PeteN @ 25 Aug 2004, 03:56) Oh no, it's the 1:1 that powers the wrong wheels, FWD is not for performance cars! JMHO
The car looks great, and thanks to Mclaren for his great review: sounds like it will run well too.

Buy a 1:1 version, drive it every day, and the idea that FWD and performance don't mix will soon disappear

regards

Ken
Until you take it to a REAL racetrack or autoX and you will start to realize there is a reason sports cars are RWD.

FWD cars cant accelerate while they are cornering at the limit. It is an impossibilty.

Back on topic that is a fantastic model!

 

[Stradale]

QUOTE (darainbow @ 26 Aug 2004, 13:53)Until you take it to a REAL racetrack or autoX and you will start to realize there is a reason sports cars are RWD.
FWD cars cant accelerate while they are cornering at the limit. It is an impossibilty.
I agree with you Darainbow, no argument here, historically sports cars have been Rear Wheel Drive, and likely will always be in the majority.

However ( there is always a however ) the car in Question that McLaren did a review on IS a racing car, IS front wheel drive and has been successful. It has one multiple rounds of the British and European Touring Car Championships.(thats why they made a model of it )against both front and rear wheel drive cars.

My own 156 has been to various super sprint and track days and has proved itself fast and agile.faster then some RWD and slower than others.

I agree its no formula one car,with its front wheel drive, but the two terms "front wheel drive" and "performance" are not mutually exclusive.

 

[MR MAX]

What about the Nissan Primera, that was FWD and they had 140hp, 0-60: 9.0secs. I just bought a Plebys Track Cleaner so I can save mysdelf spending the money of buying new track so I can buy cars instead. I'd like to have that 156 on my list of cars, hopefully Birthday in November and Christmas will buy a good few!

 

[PeteN]

QUOTE (MR MAX @ 26 Aug 2004, 17:05)What about the Nissan Primera, that was FWD and they had 140hp, 0-60: 9.0secs.

140hp? New motorcycles have more than that! 0-60 in 9 sec.? Not what I consider performance. I am sorry to twist this thread, but I don't consider anything above about 7 sec. 0-60 a real performance car. And I know there are some very quick FWDs, but I am an old dog and it just doesn't make sense to have the natural weight transfer of acceleration reduce the load over the drive wheels. I also love to steer with my right foot (not understeer). JMHOs

Oh yes, it is a lovely car and a nice review, thanks!

 

[MR MAX]

My Dad's mate has got a V8 55OKG Westfield that does 0-60 in 5 secs flat. How do you like that? Any way, my Dad's other car is a Lotus Elan 1969 that does 0-60 in 6.5secs. We might tune it up to do 0-60 in 5.3secs!

 

[McLaren]

Hey Mr Max, both those cars are RWD...

McLaren

 

[PeteN]

That's what I thought, McLaren. I know Lotus and very much admire Mr. Chapman's work, but am not familiar with Westfield. Is it like a Morgan or Caterham?

Hey Max, I have a friend with a '69 Chevelle which does 0-60 in under 2 seconds! It has a 10 liter alloy V-8 with a lot of N2O and weighs over 3200 lbs. He drives it on the street sometimes, it is legal. It doesn't go around corners very well, but has done a 1/4 mile in under 8 sec. on treaded tires.

 

[andreg]

QUOTE Until you take it to a REAL racetrack or autoX and you will start to realize there is a reason sports cars are RWD.

FWD cars cant accelerate while they are cornering at the limit. It is an impossibilty.

IMO they usually have a disadvantage on normal roads too.
During acceleration with a decent performing FWD car the steering wheel is likely to to turn everywhere (I don't know what the English term for this is...) because the surface isn't completely flat.
A very well known situation with my mildly tuned FWD Golf VR6 on poor norwegian roads...

André

 

[darainbow]

QUOTE (Stradale @ 26 Aug 2004, 13:18)QUOTE (darainbow @ 26 Aug 2004, 13:53)

Until you take it to a REAL racetrack or autoX and you will start to realize there is a reason sports cars are RWD.
FWD cars cant accelerate while they are cornering at the limit. It is an impossibilty.
I agree with you Darainbow, no argument here, historically sports cars have been Rear Wheel Drive, and likely will always be in the majority.

However ( there is always a however ) the car in Question that McLaren did a review on IS a racing car, IS front wheel drive and has been successful. It has one multiple rounds of the British and European Touring Car Championships.(thats why they made a model of it )against both front and rear wheel drive cars.

My own 156 has been to various super sprint and track days and has proved itself fast and agile.faster then some RWD and slower than others.

I agree its no formula one car,with its front wheel drive, but the two terms "front wheel drive" and "performance" are not mutually exclusive.
People race pickup trucks, it doesnt mean its optimal. ANYTHING can be raced.

Depending on the rules of the class and the type of racing, a FWD car can win. But let there be no mistake that the origin of every FWD car is a people-mover. FWD cars are cheaper to produce and have safety benefits.

The only performance advantage I can think of for a FWD car is that the drivetrain is shorter so less parasitic losses, and lighter.

There are some pretty powerful FWD cars that do sadly at AutoX considering their pwer/weight ratio. Integra Type-R comes to mind. I cant think of any other FWD cars masquerading as performance cars in the USA.

 

[Stradale]

QUOTE (darainbow @ 27 Aug 2004, 12:10)I cant think of any other FWD cars masquerading as performance cars in the USA.
When people use terms like "impossible" it is always surprising.they are so confidant of there own knowledge that they cannot see there could possibly be a different perspective,or that technology may have overcome some of the premises that their biased knowledge is based on.

"torque Steer" as mentioned by roadkill is one issue that has been improved incredibly,even since the Golf GT's came out.

I re-iterate my initial comment. From being an "old dog" who believed only RWD cars could be called "performance". I actually put my money where my mouth is and bought a 156. It was a revelation.

Meanwhile, I am going to take my poor ignorant soul, climb into my "masquerading" people mover, and go and wipe the smile off a few more smug,ignorant V8 owners.
(note to self. don't try and accelerate with the steering wheel turned,its "impossible")

 

[darainbow]

QUOTE (Stradale @ 27 Aug 2004, 03:49)QUOTE (darainbow @ 27 Aug 2004, 12:10) I cant think of any other FWD cars masquerading as performance cars in the USA.
When people use terms like "impossible" it is always surprising.they are so confidant of there own knowledge that they cannot see there could possibly be a different perspective,or that technology may have overcome some of the premises that their biased knowledge is based on.

"torque Steer" as mentioned by roadkill is one issue that has been improved incredibly,even since the Golf GT's came out.

I re-iterate my initial comment. From being an "old dog" who believed only RWD cars could be called "performance". I actually put my money where my mouth is and bought a 156. It was a revelation.

Meanwhile, I am going to take my poor ignorant soul, climb into my "masquerading" people mover, and go and wipe the smile off a few more smug,ignorant V8 owners.
(note to self. don't try and accelerate with the steering wheel turned,its "impossible")
I race my 1:1 car almost every weekend. Yes it is RWD. The last car I owned and raced was FWD, so I have first hand experience with both.

Read about the traction circle. The fundamental problem with FWD is one of physics. The front tires are responsible for cornering AND acceleration. When a FWD car is cornering at the limits, it cant accelerate. If you try to accelerate it plows and still doesnt generate forward momentum. Period. No if ands or buts.

Cornering with a FWD car is painful because you cant get on the gas and power through the apex, you have to wait until you are through the turn to accelerate. By that time you have lost ALOT of ground to a RWD car.

Add to that a slew of other problems including inherent problems with suspension design to accomodate a FWD drivetrain, additional forward weight bias, and the aforementioned torque steer and you will KNOW that FWD is the slowest way around a course.

Unless you have raced I dont expect you to have first hand experience with this. If you dont believe me, then do some reading.

I dont have any experience with rally/tarmac racing so there may be some advanteges to FWD on loose surfaces.

Not saying they cant make a "sporty" FWD car, but there are fundamental problems with FWD.

 

[Stradale]

Thanks for the info Darainbow,its good to get an idea what various people get up to and what their experience is.

I think we drifted a little. my initial point was that a FWD drive car be made to handle, and can deserve its title of a performance car. What is or is not the optimal race car is beyond my knowledge to argue,and my budget to purchase, and I agree,in 99 out of 100 cases it will be RWD.

On the physics thing, I have to play devil's advocate though. Initially into a corner it is the inertia of the vehicle that makes it want to go straight ahead. i was taught that in a front wheel drive you want to brake early,then make the car "throttle nuetral" at the apex( so it is weight transfer nuetral ). from then on its a balance between inertia,front traction, and the force applied by the front wheels, cause the direction of that force is in the same direction the wheels are pointing, not simply the direction the car is going.

Good luck with your racing.

by the way, I can read, and have.

regards

Ken

 

[darainbow]

QUOTE (Stradale @ 27 Aug 2004, 04:57)Thanks for the info Darainbow,its good to get an idea what various people get up to and what their experience is.

I think we drifted a little. my initial point was that a FWD drive car be made to handle, and can deserve its title of a performance car. What is or is not the optimal race car is beyond my knowledge to argue,and my budget to purchase, and I agree,in 99 out of 100 cases it will be RWD.

On the physics thing, I have to play devil's advocate though. Initially into a corner it is the inertia of the vehicle that makes it want to go straight ahead. i was taught that in a front wheel drive you want to brake early,then make the car "throttle nuetral" at the apex( so it is weight transfer nuetral ). from then on its a balance between inertia,front traction, and the force applied by the front wheels, cause the direction of that force is in the same direction the wheels are pointing, not simply the direction the car is going.

Good luck with your racing.

by the way, I can read, and have.

regards

Ken
Its called the "Traction Circle". Good luck with your reading.

 

[Stradale]

thanks Rainbow

Physics of Motorsport

This is an interesting page if any ones interested.

Sorry to have kijacked your thread so conclusively McLaren. I will behave again now.

regards

Ken

 

[MR MAX]

The road Primera from '94 was a FWD and could do 130mph. The touring car was changed to RWD because it was a 300HP turbocharged 4 cylinder engine, you couldn't put this power through the front wheels. PeteN: Sweet ride, that is the quickest road legal 0-60 car inthe world. I believe you about it's time, but it would be weird to be sitting there at 0mph and in 2 or less seconds, you're doing 60! You'd probably suffer from whiplash every time you did it!

THe Westfield is an independent company that sell their V8 Westfield at £30,000 in the UK. It looks very similar to the Caterham, here's a pic.Westfield pic

 

[MR MAX]

Here's the official website of Westfield and here is their Westfield Rover V8: Westfield Seight

 

[darainbow]

Stradale,

That information is OK but not easily understood. They talk about the traction circle but never really explain why it is called a circle! (The "circle" just a way to visualize how a tire works and is usually acompanied by a circular diagram. Has nothing to do with tires being round.)

I recommend "Secrets of Solo Racing", Watts

 

[Intergrali]

Erm Mr Max...

you sure you arent moped?

"You cant put this power through FWD"

FWD approx 500bhp?

will beat a viper

 

[MR MAX]

Because it's a FWD, hard accelerating with 500HP would mean carp steering but it would go like stink. You would also get wheelspin nearly all the way through 1st and 2nd gear.