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Anthony Bartlett
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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Just musing - what cars belong to the GT Class or what is the definition of GT Class of cars? Is this the (what I believe) Class of cars like - Ferrari 250 GT, Cobra daytona, Morgam plus 8 Sunbeam Alpine Austin Healey, and/or does it include the likes of Ford GT40, Porsche 904 GTS and Lola Ford Gt that raced at Le Mans in the sixties?
 

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This is a bomb waiting to go off


In modern, current day definitions, GT cars are 'closed top' cars ie tintops.....

Historically however....


*You* try wading through the LMP, GTS, GT, GT1, GT2, GT3, Grp A, Grp B, Grp C, Grp 1, Grp 2, Grp, 3 Grp 4, Grp 5 etc etc etc regs.... and the answer is a as clear as mud




-Rob
 

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Phil Smith
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My Dad had a Ford Cortina GT when I was young, which was a four door family saloon, is this a GT car. Said it was on all the badges on the car.

Interestingly there was a question on the UK TV show Mastermind just last night.

Q: What term do the Italians use for a luxury car
A: Gran Turismo

Certainly is a can of worms you've opened here Anthony


I am guessing that it is connected with the fact that Samy has decided that next years class at Bordeaux will be 'GT' cars?

when I talked to him at Paris a couple of weeks ago he seemed to think that a GT car was a closed 2 door coupe style car, so when I asked if the IMC '65 Galaxie on my table would be ok he answered yes.
so expect a field of IMC cars in 1/32 at next years meeting!
 

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Scott Brownlee
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Is it so different from saying F1? You need to put in a time period to be clear to others what you mean.

As for defining cars by the badges manufactures stick to them I have to say be careful; there is a Skoda with Superb written on the boot lid...
 

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Allan Wakefield
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Sounds like we need a SlotForum Resource!

Anyone got some ideas to start?

We could begin by decade?
Then Class within that Decade?

Would be great to have a sheet you can look at and see what car fitted in what class and in what year.
 

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Phil Smith
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QUOTE what about the VW Golf GTi? Is that a GT car

Well you couldn't call it a luxury car!

I think that Anthony has bought this up in relation with the Vintage Bordeaux meeting next year and if so we only have to relate to cars made between 1948 to 1968 I would think.
 

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No, a Golf GTI is not a GT car, it is a touring car.

Basically, a GT car is a 2+2 or 2 places car. The difficulty lies with the coupes. Is the BMW M3 a GT car ? I tend to say that though they not really GT cars, 2 doors coupes can be included in the GT category (just my point of view).

In the touring car category, you'll find gr.A (from 1982), gr.1 and gr.2 cars (from 1976 up to 1981).

GTP cars are not GT cars, they are Sportcars / prototypes. In the early 70's, Sport cars were closed and prototypes were open. Sport cars were able to have a 5,0 L engine where the prototypes had to do with a 3,0 L one. Gr. C cars were the modern sportcars, Gr.6 were prototypes. Nowadays, sportcars (LMP) can be either closed or open.

Gr. 4 and gr. B cars were GT's. Gr. 5 ? Well, though very little remained from the street version (just like current GTS cars), they can be seen as GT cars.

The difficulty are GTones. Supposedly GT's, they really were prototypes / sportcars (just like the Maserati MC12 in my point of view).
 

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...complicated as the different classes are depending on teh year the car has been running - -and the rules and regulations applying (FIA or LeMans for example)
Monoposti (Formula 1 - 3, IndyCar/ChampCar etc.)
Touring cars (Gr 1 and 2, Gr A, maybe DTM)
GTs (Gr. 3 and 4, GTP, GT1, GT2, GT3, GT, GTS, N-GT...)
CanAm / Interserie (917/10, McLaren M8B ...)
Sportcars (Gruppe C + IMSA after 1982, 70ties: Porsche 917, Ferrari 512...)
Prototypes (Porsche 908/x, Ferrari 312 P, Alfa 33, Matra 6xx ...)
WSC / LMP (Joest-Porsche, Panoz Spyder, BMW V12 LM, Audi R8...)
Rallye

To difficult to explain it in one posting - you've to write books about them...
 

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Scott Brownlee
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Using real life classification for slot cars can lead to problems - and fights.

The trouble is even in 1:1 they have eligibility rows. Another idea is to do what Oxford club does and use a mix of real and slot specific definition. One race might be 4wd rally, the next any car with lights, the next defined only by the use of Ninco NC1 motors. It produces curious (from a 1:1 point of view) grids, but is perfectly valid for racing toy cars.

Personally, I have a fondness for some sort of approximation to reality so grouping cars with real life contemporaries is always preferred.
 

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Anthony Bartlett
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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Ok guys - it was a general muse .... but Phil is right - the class next year at Bordeaux is 'Grand Tourisme', and I did not mention that as I did not want to relate the discussion specifically to that..........

So, lets talk about up to round early seventies time period. (in my mind this was the period when small run type (true) racing Gt's were produced )

If I am not mistaken, I remember a definition floating around that to be GT, the car had to be closed roof, and have 2 seats - and I think there had to be 30 or 50 of them made for road customers ..... but in my musing on that point, the cars I mentioned came to mind - The GT 40 and the Lola Ford GT (monograms version) and possibly the P4 (that even had a spare wheel), and this led on to the question - what exactly is a GT car (and I mean in the racing definition)... ???


Another car that springs to mind is the Chevron B8.....
 

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Thomas,

I disagree with you over the GTP category. It was the basis for the Gr. C regulation. They are definitely prototypes, not GT's (there wasn't even any street version of those cars - save for the Porsche 962 but that's another story !).

I won't argue over GT1's, it has always been a problem, right from the start.
 

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Phil Smith
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In the time frame we are talking about, i.e. 48 to 68, then I believe, that to be a GT the car must have-

1: closed hard roof
2: two doors
3: seating and luggage space for four people

'GT' does translate to 'Grand Touring' and this would be the minimum requirements for such a car.

But then, is a Maserati Quattroporte not a Grand Touring car ?


This would rule out the GT40 and P4 which I think are prototypes and ran as such in their day.
 

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Interesting topic, I guess I'll add my thoughts to the mix. I consider GT cars to be closed 2 seat or 2+2 racecars based on production versions. The Ferrari GTO (Grand Turismo Omligato (SP?)) was named for this system. Homoligation (SP?) is the process for allowing a car to race in a class depending on production numbers. The numbers have varied from 50 to 100 to 1000, but there is usually a minimum to exclude prototypes.

Of course manufacturers try to cheat, such as Ferrari claiming the 250LM was a slightly modified version of the GTO?!? There are various GT classes, GT1, GT2 (GTS), and GT3 (GT), and probably more. I am not really familiar with the European "group #" clasifications. And GTP (group C), which is GT Prototype, is not really a GT car because it is not based on a production road car. GT1 began to meld GT classes with GTP as the cars became more wild and the "street" versions became less realistic.

I like to group my cars as LMP, GTP, GT1, GT2 (GTS), and GT3 (GT). Then there are the little hatchs and sedans/touring cars, which seem tougher to classify than the GTs to me?.
 

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PeteN,

the "Group" category is not an european, it is the international one (FIA).

Regarding the Ford GT40, I think it raced in the GT category in 1969 (and possibly 1968 as well). That's why they had to race the 1st version of the car.
 

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My point was that it had a "GT" in the name, as did Phil's father's Cortina


Obviously, it's not a luxury car....

McLaren
 

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In my day, which is now over, GT meant a car with a hard top, luggage space for a suitcase, two seats, a spare tire, windshield wipers and lights (and other street required appliances), and production numbers in the 50 to 100 range. My day was 1965. The definition was the FIA's, which was what we all followed in building slot cars (of course, we left out the suitcase space).

Engine displacement was divided into under and over 2 liters, or 3, depending on exactly when.

American cars did compete in FIA GT classes, even if they were two door sedans (that is, with front seats and back seats).

Manufacturers love to appropriate real racing designations and render them meaningless. Like the Pontiac GTO, and practically anybody's "GT". It means nothing, as far as racing classes go.

Prototype cars, in the mid-sixties, were limited production or one of a kind vehicles, which, if they ever were built in large enough numbers eventually, would be then included in GT (closed) or Sports (open) categories. The Ford GT 40 falls into that category. It followed the GT rules, except for production numbers (at first).

Even though the FIA wrote rules, they allowed them to be bent, as in the case of the Ferrari 250 GTO. Enzo called it the GTO (Omolgato, or Homolgated in English) in order to demonstrate to the FIA that it was really eligible, even though they did not make sufficient numbers. It worked. The following 250 LM was in the Prototye class, because the FIA would not be fooled again. Ferrari then quit racing, for a time, in a huff, because the FIA enforced its own rules.

As far as fitting models of real race cars into somebody's slot car interpretation of classes, good luck. Slot car classes are often defined by people with a weak understanding of real car race classes. I recently had a Porsche 904 ruled out of a so-called GT race, while a Camaro was allowed in. In reality, the Porsche would have been a better fit than the Camaro. Racing by other people's rules brings out the diplomat in us, or we retreat into non-racing like Enzo.
 

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DT
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To sum up, A GT car is a car that you can do some manly racing with during the week down at the track, then on Friday afternoon, take your blond PA on a road trip through the English rain down to the sunny French Riviera for the weekend and be back again for work on Monday with out the car breaking down or the PA running off with another bloke with a cooler car.
 
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