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Al Schwartz
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3,392 Posts
After five years of wandering around before the inevitable '60s 1/32 F 1 race at Las Vegas, I vowed (in public) that I would have my own car this year. Despite having a drawer full of Ferrari, Cooper and BRM bodies, most of which would accomodate a more-or-less conventional motor/chassis set-up, I decided to tackle the Eagle body that I obtained several years ago (a Fitzpatrick glass body)

When I first metioned my concerns about the space inside on a DL some time back, Russell, ever helpful and generous as he is, sent me one of the rare K's motors advising that it was about the only thing that would fit.

Take motor in one hand, body in the other and push them together - hmmmm - not going! - and add some side plates to the motor to form a chassis and it gets worse!

Opened the motor drawer and here is what came out:

gallery_99_516_34576.jpg


Left to right: a version of the currently popular Bear Dog mini-motor, the TMM (Taiwan mystery motor), K's, an (MRRC?) eBay find, and, for contrast, a standard Mabuchi can. Although the K's is 0.002" narrower than the TMM, by the time side plates of any reasonable thickness, say 0.032" are added, you are at 0.66" - a non-starter for this chassis. The MRRC is about as bad, even without the screw heads. The mini-motor and the TMM are the same cross section, the only difference being length. Since my friend Jim Butt has a wickedly fast Indy Turbine powered by one of the latter and since, like the mini-motor, an end-of-the-can mount can be done, it got the nod. Like the mini-motor, the shaft needs to be sleeved to accomdate a 2 mm bore pinion (more about gears later).

Looking at photos of the Eagle Weslake, I decided that, in addition to the distinctive body shape and paint scheme, several other things defined the "look" - the solid polished (titanium?) upswept front A-arms, the long rear suspension trailing arms and the very distinctive polished exhaust system. The model would need to incorporate these.

Next consideration - the guide: The front overhang on the Eagle is long but narrow. Both the Sakatsu (trailing) guide and the TSRF guide can be accomodated without extending past the tip of the nose. The TSRF guide is more easily adjusted for height and has the wires extending from the back of the braid mount rather than the front (in the case of the Sakatsu), an advantage with the narrow nose so the nod went to the TSRF.

Thanks to wheel and tire size info from Mr. P and wheelbase and track data ( 96.5", 61" F/R) from Prof. Fate, I was ready to start cutting metal. I decided on a wire sprung pivoting chassis ( and am not at all certain that my version of this type will have any handling advantage over, for example, an out-of-the-box MRRC brass Clubman). Working on this scale has its pitfalls - most of what you will see is second and third tries (but I keep telling myslef that I am learning with each mistake)

On the jig:

gallery_99_516_21741.jpg


and right side up:

gallery_99_516_7024.jpg


The rear assembly is machined from brass stock. The front section is 0.062" brass and the front axle carrier and origami-like upper A arms is 0.032" brass sheet. the pivot is 1/16" drill rod and the torsion springs are 0.047" music wire.

Here is the first trial assembly:

gallery_99_516_25085.jpg


The wheels and tires are temporary but they are of the right diameter - 0.80" front, 0.85" rear.

Now, about gears - notice the little green crown gear above - it is the smallest (24T) Slot-It gear. I would have loved to have fitted a 64 DP crown with an internal (same side as the teeth) hub but to the best of my knowledge, no such animal exists and the width does not allow for the fitting of an external hub. I know that the Scaly etc. crowns are a bit smaller but I am not about to spend the time to build a scratch chassis and then fit a P.O.S. gear set! Here are the consequences of my choice:

Dr Jekyll:

gallery_99_516_15643.jpg


Mr. Hyde:

gallery_99_516_341788.jpg


And that amount of cutting does not allow for any body movement! I believe that I can accomdate a little body shake by skimming 1-2 mm off the diameter of the gear (they appear to survive much more powerful motors) and chamfering the outer edge. Beyond that, I plan to add a little built up detail of some lines, add rear suspension detail including the coil-over spring units, paint the gear silver or black and hope that those measures, along with the extension of the exhaust pipes, will mask the surgery.

An Eagle or an omlet? - we shall see.

EM
 

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Graham Windle
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4,445 Posts
only one pic showing EM but that looks good , I seem to remember some guys who built this classic shell in the 60s cutting the side of the shell to let a 16d fit in and then detailng the side of the motor to hide the fact there were no sides in the shell ,if you see what I mean. Alec Mcknight at the accrington club had a monocoque set up usiing a riko flash mk1 with a monogram f1 bracket attached and an mrrc steering unit . As I remember it went very well at the time
 

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Al Schwartz
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3,392 Posts
Discussion Starter · #5 ·
QUOTE only one pic showing EM

Don't know what happened - I looked earlier and a few pics were missing - now they seem to be back - maybe my host had a hiccup?

Thanks for your suggestion - that is along the lines of what I intend to do. I am also going to send inquiries to some of the gear houses to find out what it would cost to get some 24T 64 DP crowns with an internal hub - probably going to be a shocker but it's cheap to ask. 64 DP, in addition to being smaller, would also be convenient since these motors come with a perfectly good 64 DP pinion and other sizes with a 1.5 mm bore are available from HO sources.

While the body issue is incubating, I am pondering the wheel insert question. The Eagle wheel is quite distinctive. Maxi-Models makes an Eagle insert but it is too small for this model. There is a BWA insert that is quite close but it is 5 spoke, not 6. At the moment, my inclination is to use the latter until I can get around to making a pattern and casting some of my own.

A note on the motor: First time around, I managed to make a mess of one. I soldered on the sleeve and then tried to use a Slot-It press-fit pinion. I realized too late that the shaft does not extend through the end bell and, in applying pressure, I locked the motor. There was nothing to do but scrap it so I opened it up to see what the guts were like. I was pleasantly surprized to find a nice set of proper carbon brushes and a well-made commutator. The can is heavy gauge and the fit between the magnets and the armature is close. (Now I bore the pinion out to a sliding fit and solder it on)

EM
 

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Registered
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386 Posts
Hi

For comparison...My 66 Ferrari is a MRRC twin magnet clubman with .032 brass and wire side plates and MRRC period steering for the look. I also have a stock MRRC BRM P261, which is what Alan has been admiring.

In my case, When the MRRCs were new, my club took to them like crazy and we all did several. But as only two of us were buiders the allowed options were limited. They would have put a stake in my heart if I had built anything like the chassis EM is doing. It will be interesting.
Anyway, I should have several of the MRRCs and I hope two of the "Beardog" cars at Vegas. But my racer will be that same 66 Ferrari.

Fate
 

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Russell Sheldon
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2,855 Posts
That chassis is seriously excellent craftsmanship, EM!

I think that the K's motor which I sent you was a Mk.II. I am able to fit a Mk.I -- which has the brush-gear mounted on top of the motor -- easily into a MRRC Eagle body, along with with a 'girder' type chassis:-





As I recall, Mark Manion entered a superbly detailed MRRC Eagle in the 2001 Marconi Proxy race. Unfortunately, this is the only photo I could find of it -- but it gives a glimpse of the standard that needs to be achieved!:-



Regarding gears, you may wish to consider using Wizzard silicone-bronze HO gears. They are made for 'HO-size' axles, so need to be centre-bored to 3/32". The Wizzard gears are 64DP. Although the boss is on the outside, the gear is very narrow, as shown in this picture of my Marconi 1/32nd scale Mini chassis:-



Please keep us updated EM, especially on the solution for wheel inserts!

With kind regards,

Russell
 

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Al Schwartz
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3,392 Posts
This is called giving with one hand and taking away with the other - to wit:

QUOTE That chassis is seriously excellent craftsmanship, EM!

Coming from you, I take that as high praise, indeed - many thanks -

and then:

QUOTE As I recall, Mark Manion entered a superbly detailed MRRC Eagle in the 2001 Marconi Proxy race. Unfortunately, this is the only photo I could find of it -- but it gives a glimpse of the standard that needs to be achieved!:-



One look and I was ready to go down to the shop and consign my efforts to the dustbin! - seriously - that is a beatiful piece of work. These stubby fingers won't ever match that but we shall do our best.

My intent on the inserts (probably not to be accomplished in the next three weeks) is to make a pattern to fit a BWA wheel (0.45")

My plan goes like this (and I earnestly invite comments from those more experienced at this than I)

I.Face off a piece of aluminum bar stock

2. drill 6 small holes equally spaced around a circle sized to represent the wheel hub, the space between the holes to represent the thickness of the spoke base

3. Drill 6 larger holes (size to be determined) on the same radii centered on a circle equivalent to the final diameter of the insert. Again, the spacing between them will be the width of the spoke at the rim

4. Machine the OD to the final diameter

5. Turn the inward taper of the spokes

6. Cut off the part

7. File and grind away the material between the outer and inner hole edges to leave 6 tapering spokes

8. Mold & cast from resin

I am also looking into using machinable wax, often used to test CNC set-ups, as an easier to use alternative to aluminum

Assuming I am successful, I will either make them available myself or offer the pattern to BWA to include in his line (Assuming he's not already 90% of the way there as is often the case!)

EM
 

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Phil Smith
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4,534 Posts
This all reminds me that I must try and finish my Lotus 49 which I started last year,
One way round the gearing problem for these sort of cars is to use Taylormade gears or there more modern counterparts, heres a picture of the chassis using these sort of gears,



I believe that Betta models sell these.

Here's where I got to with the Lotus



I have been busy doing some cars for the upcoming vintage events in Turin and Bordeaux, here are some of my latest efforts

 

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Al Schwartz
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3,392 Posts
Discussion Starter · #11 ·
QUOTE One way round the gearing problem for these sort of cars is to use Taylormade gears or there more modern counterparts, heres a picture of the chassis using these sort of gears,

They remind me very much of the "Eldi" gears that were in common use in the late 50's I consumed them at a fair rate but then, of course, I was fitting them to Pittman motors in heavy (Merit bodied) 1/24 cars. I probably still have some around - need to rummage through the "old parts" cabinet and see. I assumed, but never explicitly knew, that "Eldi" was derived from the initials of D.J. Laidlaw-Dickson, the editor of Model Maker.

The rear suspension work on the Lotus is beautiful. I may try to adopt some of the approach to the Eagle. I can't do it with the trailing arms, though. The Eagle ones are very long and intersect the body well forward of the end of the body work. My thinking at the moment is to reinforce the body from the inside just forward of the slot cut for the rear suspension and form up the trailing arms as slightly cranked "L s" as I did on the BRM but I am not to that stage yet.

Is the motor a casting or a fabrication?

EM
 

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Phil Smith
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4,534 Posts
I think the Eldi gears were a much courser pitch.
With Tyalormades you can still get a decent gear ratio (the lotus is 3.3 to 1 ) and fit it all under the detailing.
Just looked in the Betta catalogue and they still sell them.
 

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Russell Sheldon
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2,855 Posts
The Taylor gears are 72DP steel and mesh very nicely when properly set-up, but I think that they are only made for 1/8" axles.

One-O-One products had similar gears, but with a 3/32" bore and Betta may have some of these as well (I don't have their catalogue). In fact, despite the weight, many people still use these steel gears in F1 Eurosport cars -- powered by "strap" cobalt motors -- for which SCD sells a specially hardened 36T contrate gear, as well hardened pinions 8/9/10/11T (72 pitch).

Wizzard slicone-bronze 64DP gears are available from NCP Hobbies and come in 22/23/24/25/26/27T. The 22T is tiny in diameter, being a full 1/4" smaller in diameter than scale Mini tyres, but has a 1/16" bore:-



Yes Phil, you HAVE to get your Lotus 49 finished!

Kind regards

Russell
 

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Phil Kalbfell
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3,373 Posts
I cannot get EM's pics to display but all the others do. Do I have some settings wrong?

These are one of my favorite era's of F1 cars and I have several to build so have been following with interest.

Phil
 

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Al Schwartz
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3,392 Posts
Discussion Starter · #15 ·
QUOTE I cannot get EM's pics to display but all the others do

Phil:

If it won't work for you, let me know and I'll e-mail the pics. they are JPEGs - about 50K each

EM
 

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Registered
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Re none showing pics - on the rare occasion I get a look in from work, I find many pics will not show during certain hours - those when we are supposed to be actually working! They have some damn filtration software that that blanks most hosting sites, but not all, depending on where they are hosted.
This is one possible explanation fo no-shows.

Apart from that, my my, we are seeing some masterful workmanship here - it's an absolute delight.
 

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Phil Kalbfell
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3,373 Posts
EM: That would be great. My work Email is the fastest. [email protected]

I can't see why all the other pics load and not yours. I thought it mat have been this slow connection here at home but they don't load on my work machine either.
Phil
 

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Dash it all, EM. Beautiful work, raising the stakes once more! My MRRC Eagle is already in it's second rebuild, but it looks as if I'll have to start all over again.
I reprofiled the nose, hacked away the heavy bits of the chassis and made front suspension arms out of ali. The big square holes in the front bodywork for the steering got filled and reshaped to get those little airdams in place, and I fitted rudimentary p/wire rear suspension. New w/screen out of Easter egg packaging to replace that horrible thick piece of wodge. New decals from Pattos. But I kept the standard motor and wheels. The Cheetah's fine, even if it makes Dan perch up a little high in the airstream- but then he is a tall fella. But the wheels are a desperate compromise. I tried the Maxi-Models ones, but they're too wide, and then basically gave up.
But the competitive instinct is strong in me... My Eagle shall soar again!
The mesh covering the inlet trumpets is neat- I shall start poking around in the cutlery drawer for an old tea strainer... unless anyone can suggest better sources?
 

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Russell Sheldon
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2,855 Posts
EM, I'm sure that you have loads of reference material (including your own sketches -- I know how much research you put into these projects!) but in case you haven't got everything you need, here are links to reference photo's that you may find useful:

Eagle-Weslake 1
Eagle-Weslake 2

These were the race car numbers used during the 1967 GP season:

Monte-Carlo:
Dan Gurney - #23 Eagle-Weslake T1G - AAR 102 Richie Ginther - #21 Eagle-Weslake T1G - AAR 103

Zandvoort:
Dan Gurney - #15 Eagle-Weslake T1G - AAR 104

Spa:
Dan Gurney - #36 Eagle-Weslake T1G - AAR 104

Le Mans:
Dan Gurney - #9 Eagle-Weslake T1G - AAR 104 Bruce McLaren - #8 Eagle-Weslake T1G - AAR 102

Silverstone:
Dan Gurney - #9 Eagle-Weslake T1G - AAR 104 Bruce McLaren - #10 Eagle-Weslake T1G - AAR 102

Nurburgring:
Dan Gurney - #9 Eagle-Weslake T1G - AAR 104 Bruce McLaren - #10 Eagle-Weslake T1G - AAR 102

Mosport
Dan Gurney - #10 Eagle-Weslake T1G - AAR 103 Alan Pease - #11 (private) Eagle-Climax T1G - AAR 101

Monza:
Dan Gurney - #8 Eagle-Weslake T1G - AAR 104 Ludovico Scarfiotti - #10 Eagle-Weslake T1G - AAR 102

Watkins Glen:
Dan Gurney - #11 Eagle-Weslake T1G - AAR 104

Mexico City:
Dan Gurney - #11 Eagle-Weslake T1G - AAR 104

Race of Champions Brands Hatch:
Dan Gurney - #5 Eagle-Weslake T1G - AAR 102 Richie Ginther - #6 Eagle-Weslake T1G - AAR 103

Notes on drivers:

AAR was intended as a two-car / two-driver team, though problems with engine supply prevented this on some occasions, and two cars were available for Zandvoort, but only one driver following Ginther's retirement. Ginther was only entered in the Monte-Carlo GP but failed to qualify.

Scarfiotti was given a one-off drive for his home GP.

Alan Pease bought the old Eagle-Climax and was a private entry in the Canadian GP.

Notes on cars:

Although the Gurney-Weslake V-12 engined Eagle T1G first appeared at Monza in 1966, the team started the 1967 season in South Africa with the earlier Climax engined Eagle (AAR 101). The Gurney-Weslake V-12 was back at Monaco for both cars (AAR 102 and 103). A lighter Eagle (AAR 104) appeared at Zandvoort and was used exclusively by Gurney for the rest of the season (except at Mosport where 103 was used fitted with the titanium parts from 104).

With kind regards,

Russell
 

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Phil Smith
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4,534 Posts
Try J.A.Crew & co for mesh, they do it down to 500, I got some 200 and it's like cloth! I used the 100 mesh on the Lotus 49 inlets.
Thye also do lots of other useful bits an pieces.

web site address is

J A Crew
 
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