SlotForum banner

Kangaroos hops with NSR cars in APB analogue

3733 Views 41 Replies 11 Participants Last post by  Crazy Iwan

NSR car + APB + Analogue = kangaroo hops at minimum speed & pulsing at higher speeds
NSR car + any other car on the track in the same lane at the same + APB + Analogue = normal driving

What's going on here - does anybody else have motor pulsing problems with NSRs? They've both got stock Evo King 21400 rpm motors in anglewinder.
I know the APB analogue mode sends power in pulses but the problem only occurs with NSR; now I have a new NSR car which does exactly the same thing - I only have two. The cars work fine with an old analogue transformer & also with a 9v battery.

Here's the strange bit, whilst testing with the APB, by mistake I put another car on the same lane and the NSR started going normally - this happened no matter what other brand or type, with or without chips, and amazingly if I put the other NSR car on the same lane at the same they both run normally - no pulsing at all?

Have I got a unique problem or it something to do with NSR motors or sine waves or some other electrical phasing gobbledygook?

See less See more
1 - 8 of 42 Posts
Your base is not unique. Different motors respond to the pulsed signal differently. NSR are probably the worst, but do it too to some extent. You notice it on almost every car at high speeds if you lift the rear and hold the car while gunning it.

I'd never heard of the problem going away when two cars are on the track, though. I'm sure there's an electrical explanation for that. I don't think ferrite men will help, but a bridge rectifier might. Got any drift cars? You could test putting the NSR motor in them (if it will fit), or putting the rectifier into the NSR chassis (body probably won't fit on at the same time) just to see what happens.

I keep forgetting about this issue since I still use my C7030 PB-Pro SH on my track. Its analog is super smooth. Next time I think about switching to the APB, I'll have to remember this problem. I wonder if it can be addressed in firmware?
Rick, he put TWO NSR cars on the same lane, and they both smoothed out. If it were an amp draw problem, that would have made it worse. It's not an amp problem, and it's not a cold solder joint. There's nothing special or broken about his APB. It happens on mine, and I can all but guarantee it happens on every other APB out there. The problem is that most people aren't running NSRs on an APB in analog mode to see this happen. Apparently, this includes Riko Rocket, Rich G, and Andrew Wallace. Or, they don't feel that this is an issue worth worrying about, they're busy with other things, or I'm completely off base and my APB is also defective.
I don't think amps work that way.
It's probably to do with the PWM frequency that the base puts out for analog mode. Some cars are fine with it, some you can barely notice it, and some act like NSR cars. Probably the more torque-y the motor, the more the problem will be evident. Ideally, the frequency or some other part of the PWM signal can be altered in firmware to work with NSR cars better.
I just finished up some testing myself, and I come away with the same conclusion as before. These are layman's tests and conclusions, though. I hope someone more intimately familiar with PWM and motor timing can do some testing on their own and let us know what's going on electrically, especially with regards to why a second motor would make any difference to the pulsing.

What I believe we are seeing is a coincidence/confluence of the PWM frequency used to control the cars, and the timing and power of the motor itself.

Chris, I bet if you put the car on backwards (wheels up), that the pulsing will be different. For me, some cars that had pulsing one way, had NONE in reverse. Some cars that had none going forward, had pulsing in reverse. And of course, some just had different amounts of pulsing, as well as many cars which exhibited no pulsing whatsoever at any power and either direction.

I tried every different type of car in my collection, and the results varied from car to car. Most of them, however, did not exhibit the pulsing except at higher speeds.

I remember this issue from a long time ago, after the APB first came out, and I would swear is was more pronounced. Though my memory could be exaggerated. This is the same unit I had back then, and the only change has been time, and the firmware. Therefore I cannot say if my motors are simply run in more, my base has "aged well" or the firmware upgrades have attempted to address this issue. As I've seen no mention of it from Andy at any time, I think it's likely the former than the latter.

Because the pulsing requires this confluence, it's entirely possible for many people to never see it, and for some people to see it vividly and often. I would also guess that not all APBs will perform in the same way, even if we were to put our exact cars on those tracks. I would bet that the power outputs have a tolerance during manufacture that allows some variances that would influence this timing. Some bases will have outputs that are at a frequency that does not interfere with any of their cars, or any of ours. It's possible that our bases (us two, and the few others who have said they have seen this) have outputs that have a frequency that our cars don't like.

My iron decided to heat up today, so I tried both the ferrite man AND a bridge rectifier (from a drift car), and neither had any noticeable effect on the pulsing.

So what is the solution? I have no idea. Putting a lesser motor in the car would remove half the niceness of the car's performance. Getting a replacement APB is no guarantee that the problem will be less, and it could be worse. You could chip the car, but I guess it's possible that some chips will have the same frequency? You could go pure analog for analog cars, but that's a major hassle. You could go to a C7030 with Simple-H, but then you'd lose a lot of nice features you might already be enjoying.

I hope someone can help us on this.
See less See more
I did all my testing with the controller in one hand and the car in another, as it was just the base on my work bench, not a layout. It was easier to check different speeds this way. Like I said, a variety of cars did the pulsing, including some Scalextric, Fly, Carrera and Ninco cars. None were as bad as yours, though, and I probably would not have noticed it on anything but the Ninco and NSR cars if I were actually driving them around a track. My C7030 PB-Pro SH is like buttah, though, for all those cars.
There's no arguing that NSR cars are great. But, cars are also great in much the same ways, especially as their chassis and pod designs improve. Both are great, but there's more to slots than those two companies, and there's nothing wrong with a guy who has nothing but Scalextric or Carrera or whatever in his collection. It's not a bad idea to have a variety, of course, and that's where my personal enjoyment is. Every brand has a unique performance, and each is enjoyable in their own way.

Note that what we've found here is a coincidence between our bases and certain motors. The CAR will perform well, even with a different motor. It might not have the same speed or torque properties, but if you drop in a or Scaley motor into that NSR car, it will have the same "hop" (or lack thereof) as the or scaley car. You might need a pinion puller/press to move the pinion over, though. At the same time, putting the Scaley motor in means you can chip it with a standard scaley chip.

I still don't think your base is "faulty" just because Martyn is lucky enough to have one that doesn't pulse at the same frequency ours do. I bet if everyone with an APB had an NSR car, and we did a poll to found out how many had noticeable pulsing at any speed, the majority would report that they did. Yours happens to be pronounced at all speeds, which really sucks. Will replacing it fix the problem? Maybe. It could go away and be like Martyn's, or it could be minor like mine, or it could be the same or even worse.
Without knowing exactly what causes it, there's no way to know how to fix or avoid it. Unless you've chopped yours up, though, I don't think it's unreasonable for you to expect some consideration from Scalextric/Hornby. Give them a call or send them a letter. Worst that could happen is they say you're SOL, as you already expect to be told.
Given that everyone else who has even noticed the problem (me, Andy, and others) report it only as an anomoly and not an annoyance, I'm leaning toward you having an exceptionally bad one for analog, and a replacement is probably your best bet since there's no indication that firmware can change this yet.

Oh, and regarding your cars, if they have chips, see if there's a bit too much wire/solder on the chip that's holding it up off the chassis floor. If the LED is being held up away from the floor too much, it might not be registering. Getting it closer and/or opening up the hold a bit for the LED might cure the lap count problems.
See less See more
Most of my best cars are analog as well, mainly because they are all unmatched with anything else, though I am chipping a set of Group C cars. My GT40 is still analog, and I totally know what you're saying about it being light in the front. A little lead will make a big difference in the front of that car. But, you seem to know why it's happening, and how to fix it. Sounds like it's not important enough to worry about, though. I'm much the same way when I drive my analog cars... I don't even count laps or look at the lap times half the time. I just drive the cars for the pure enjoyment of it.
See less See more
Trimming the braids can help, but also softer braid can. braid is pretty heavy stuff for 1/32 slot cars. I like a softer braid like NSR, or JP Slot. Copper braid is better because I find it's not as stiff as the nickel plated stuff.
1 - 8 of 42 Posts
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.