Kangaroos hops with NSR cars in APB analogue

Just done a bit more testing and it appears that with two cars on the same track, whilst it smooths out the power at the low speeds, at full throttle it's still pulsing noticeably and it also makes the non NSR car pulse at the same rate which it doesn't so much when the NSR is not on the track.

I just finished up some testing myself, and I come away with the same conclusion as before. These are layman's tests and conclusions, though. I hope someone more intimately familiar with PWM and motor timing can do some testing on their own and let us know what's going on electrically, especially with regards to why a second motor would make any difference to the pulsing.

What I believe we are seeing is a coincidence/confluence of the PWM frequency used to control the cars, and the timing and power of the motor itself.

Chris, I bet if you put the car on backwards (wheels up), that the pulsing will be different. For me, some cars that had pulsing one way, had NONE in reverse. Some cars that had none going forward, had pulsing in reverse. And of course, some just had different amounts of pulsing, as well as many cars which exhibited no pulsing whatsoever at any power and either direction.

I tried every different type of car in my collection, and the results varied from car to car. Most of them, however, did not exhibit the pulsing except at higher speeds.

I remember this issue from a long time ago, after the APB first came out, and I would swear is was more pronounced. Though my memory could be exaggerated. This is the same unit I had back then, and the only change has been time, and the firmware. Therefore I cannot say if my motors are simply run in more, my base has "aged well" or the firmware upgrades have attempted to address this issue. As I've seen no mention of it from Andy at any time, I think it's likely the former than the latter.

Because the pulsing requires this confluence, it's entirely possible for many people to never see it, and for some people to see it vividly and often. I would also guess that not all APBs will perform in the same way, even if we were to put our exact cars on those tracks. I would bet that the power outputs have a tolerance during manufacture that allows some variances that would influence this timing. Some bases will have outputs that are at a frequency that does not interfere with any of their cars, or any of ours. It's possible that our bases (us two, and the few others who have said they have seen this) have outputs that have a frequency that our cars don't like.

My iron decided to heat up today, so I tried both the ferrite man AND a bridge rectifier (from a drift car), and neither had any noticeable effect on the pulsing.

So what is the solution? I have no idea. Putting a lesser motor in the car would remove half the niceness of the car's performance. Getting a replacement APB is no guarantee that the problem will be less, and it could be worse. You could chip the car, but I guess it's possible that some chips will have the same frequency? You could go pure analog for analog cars, but that's a major hassle. You could go to a C7030 with Simple-H, but then you'd lose a lot of nice features you might already be enjoying.

I hope someone can help us on this.

QUOTE (snurfen @ 16 Jan 2012, 01:24) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Got some mates coming over tomorrow for a thrash, so will check who's got what and ask them to bring any Shark cans along if they have them.
Thanks, but it's not the Sharks, it's the King Evos they need to bring.

QUOTE (MrFlippant @ 16 Jan 2012, 00:48) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Chris, I bet if you put the car on backwards (wheels up), that the pulsing will be different. For me, some cars that had pulsing one way, had NONE in reverse. Some cars that had none going forward, had pulsing in reverse. And of course, some just had different amounts of pulsing, as well as many cars which exhibited no pulsing whatsoever at any power and either direction.
Tested mine at low speed and I couldn't detect any noticeable differences in the pulsing directionwise or trackwise. Did you do it with the controller or the pacer mode?

QUOTE (MrFlippant @ 16 Jan 2012, 00:48) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>I remember this issue from a long time ago, after the APB first came out, and I would swear is was more pronounced. Though my memory could be exaggerated. This is the same unit I had back then, and the only change has been time, and the firmware. Therefore I cannot say if my motors are simply run in more, my base has "aged well" or the firmware upgrades have attempted to address this issue. As I've seen no mention of it from Andy at any time, I think it's likely the former than the latter.
I don't think I have 0.84 firmware available but I'll flash back to 0.85 & report back - I'm assuming going backwards ain't gonna bork my APB?

QUOTE (MrFlippant @ 16 Jan 2012, 00:48) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>So what is the solution? I have no idea. Putting a lesser motor in the car would remove half the niceness of the car's performance. Getting a replacement APB is no guarantee that the problem will be less, and it could be worse. You could chip the car, but I guess it's possible that some chips will have the same frequency? You could go pure analog for analog cars, but that's a major hassle. You could go to a C7030 with Simple-H, but then you'd lose a lot of nice features you might already be enjoying.
My feelings too. And I think you could have two PBs with a switch but that's not ideal with more wires and shorting risks. Still I suppose analogue is an added extra that we're lucky to have at all.

Many thanks for all the testing & soldering MrF - as you say, hopefully someone will be able to come up with some informed technical help. Are there Any Scalextric contractors out there who created the APB who could comment although it was probably a Korean or Chinese outfit that did it but maybe Adrian Norman could get in touch with them?

Cheers
Chris

Thanks a million Martyn, I owe you one - shame you're too far away to collect it

I guess my APB is at fault then - just out of guarantee ... Riko, Adrian Scalextric Norman

Still it's saved me some money as I won't be buying any more NSRs. They didn't even acknowledge my email with this problem.

Let me know when you see another nice car and I'll see if I can find something that needs testing . Afraid all my Slot its still work like a dream (except missing the lap counting sensor with all that power under the bonnet but that's another story).

Cheers
Chris

There's no arguing that NSR cars are great. But, Slot.it cars are also great in much the same ways, especially as their chassis and pod designs improve. Both are great, but there's more to slots than those two companies, and there's nothing wrong with a guy who has nothing but Scalextric or Carrera or whatever in his collection. It's not a bad idea to have a variety, of course, and that's where my personal enjoyment is. Every brand has a unique performance, and each is enjoyable in their own way.

Note that what we've found here is a coincidence between our bases and certain motors. The CAR will perform well, even with a different motor. It might not have the same speed or torque properties, but if you drop in a slot.it or Scaley motor into that NSR car, it will have the same "hop" (or lack thereof) as the slot.it or scaley car. You might need a pinion puller/press to move the pinion over, though. At the same time, putting the Scaley motor in means you can chip it with a standard scaley chip.

I still don't think your base is "faulty" just because Martyn is lucky enough to have one that doesn't pulse at the same frequency ours do. I bet if everyone with an APB had an NSR car, and we did a poll to found out how many had noticeable pulsing at any speed, the majority would report that they did. Yours happens to be pronounced at all speeds, which really sucks. Will replacing it fix the problem? Maybe. It could go away and be like Martyn's, or it could be minor like mine, or it could be the same or even worse. Without knowing exactly what causes it, there's no way to know how to fix or avoid it. Unless you've chopped yours up, though, I don't think it's unreasonable for you to expect some consideration from Scalextric/Hornby. Give them a call or send them a letter. Worst that could happen is they say you're SOL, as you already expect to be told. Given that everyone else who has even noticed the problem (me, Andy, and others) report it only as an anomoly and not an annoyance, I'm leaning toward you having an exceptionally bad one for analog, and a replacement is probably your best bet since there's no indication that firmware can change this yet.

Oh, and regarding your slot.it cars, if they have slot.it chips, see if there's a bit too much wire/solder on the chip that's holding it up off the chassis floor. If the LED is being held up away from the floor too much, it might not be registering. Getting it closer and/or opening up the hold a bit for the LED might cure the lap count problems.

QUOTE (MrFlippant @ 1 Feb 2012, 19:18) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>I still don't think your base is "faulty" just because Martyn is lucky enough to have one that doesn't pulse at the same frequency ours do. I bet if everyone with an APB had an NSR car, and we did a poll to found out how many had noticeable pulsing at any speed, the majority would report that they did. Yours happens to be pronounced at all speeds, which really sucks.
Oh, and regarding your slot.it cars, if they have slot.it chips, see if there's a bit too much wire/solder on the chip that's holding it up off the chassis floor. If the LED is being held up away from the floor too much, it might not be registering. Getting it closer and/or opening up the hold a bit for the LED might cure the lap count problems.

The pulsing really only causes problems at the cusp of power-on where it surges from nothing to quite a lot even at 75% power. Once going, I'm continually pumping the throttle and running without dynamic brakes so this hides it at higher speeds but the Vette is a bit worse than the Mosler. If I really want to indulge a smooth blast round the track I can connect my 30 year old analog transformer and the classic/sports track converter - the old controller is weird but driveable.

Slot it was a bit of a throw away comment and they are not chipped (thanks for the offer GregK all the same) but as you both have taken the time to reply here's why:
I've got a Toyota 88C which is perfect over the sensors, but the Ford GT40 is light at the front and has a floating guide although it is quite deep and should cut the beam - maybe I should trim the long original braids as they are holding it up a bit. But probably, the real problem is I've only got one straight before it, so I need to turn the track round (as I want to keep the wires & gubbins in that corner of the room) and put it at the end of the long straight, but that may not work as I've now put 4 new sweeping R4 curves there so my foot is still down.

In fact I keep all my nice & more expensive cars for analogue magless solo or social driving and to keep the chip and damage bill down. The digital cars are mostly the Scalextric with magnets for high speed racing, which my son demands . I can't even follow it with my old eyes but at least the wireless controllers enable me to stand back & choose the optimum position - wireless rocks!

Sorry for the rambling - just thinking aloud

Cheers
Chris

Most of my best cars are analog as well, mainly because they are all unmatched with anything else, though I am chipping a set of slot.it Group C cars. My GT40 is still analog, and I totally know what you're saying about it being light in the front. A little lead will make a big difference in the front of that car. But, you seem to know why it's happening, and how to fix it. Sounds like it's not important enough to worry about, though. I'm much the same way when I drive my analog cars... I don't even count laps or look at the lap times half the time. I just drive the cars for the pure enjoyment of it.