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Premium Member
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Hi, looking for some advice and hoping someone on here has a background that can advise.

I've as a parcel of cars go missing, these were posted recordered.

My understanding is that until I have revived the parcel then the contract for delivery is between the seller an then shipper.

If this is the case I feel as soon as the allotted time set by the courier has slipped and the seller is able or not to make a claim the seller is responsible for either refunding or replacing my items.

I'm being made to wait until he files a claim and gets the money back, with the hint that if the money bing refunded does not cover the oat of the items I will not receive a full refund.

Can anyone clarify.

A link to a ruling would e helpful.

Many thanks.

Colin
 

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No1 super guy
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1,667 Posts
Colin,
you are waiting for a parcel? How was it purchased and from where? If it was a fixed price sale i.e.: Buy It Now from ebay or from a website in the U.K. you will be covered by the distance selling regulations.
If however it was an auction based sale, I believe that is not covered, you'll have to check.
Regardless of what people say (on ebay and the like) if they send you something and it goes a.w.o.l. it's down to them not you.

Give us some more info on where the purchase was made.

Mike
 

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Registered
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3,588 Posts
Were there written terms and conditions of the sale? If there were, then they are part of your contact with the seller.
Retailers and online auction sites often have published terms and conditions, most likely they are entitled to do what it says in the "small print".

Assuming both you and the seller are in England or Wales and there's no contractual issues(its much more difficult if they are in another country).
How long you have to wait for a refund is another question, unless the contract says something specific about how quickly you are entitled to a refund its probably "reasonable" in English law for him to take a few weeks. You should ask the supplier for a full refund setting a reasonable date by which you require a reply (do it in writing and keep a copy)
If that doesn't work, try your local Citizens Advice Bureau (its free) - they can advise you what legal steps are available, and advise what to put in a formal letter to the seller to put him on notice you are prepared to take him to court.
 

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Premium Member
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I think Colin is referring to an online retailer. As Colin stated, I find it difficult to understand that the retailer is saying that their refund to Colin depends on if they get the full refund from the mail company!? Surely you refund the customer (or send the parcel again) and deal with the mail company afterwards.
 

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Premium Member
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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Hi,

It is from a UK slot car supplier, I don't want to mention names as I don't want this to turn into a slagging off thread.
 

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No1 super guy
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1,667 Posts
O.K. the gist of distance selling regulations,

The laws says that:

you can get a refund if items aren't delivered on the agreed delivery date
If no delivery date is given, you can get a refund if items aren't delivered within 30 days of placing your order.

The whole thing

Regardless of what any site, shop or seller says or lists in their terms and conditions, nothing outways or supersedes your rights as a consumer. Terms and conditions connot just be made up to suit a seller. You have statutory rights as a consumer.

How did you pay? I'm assuming it was either Paypal or credit card. Contact them if the seller still messes you about and let them deal with it. I've had to use both in the past and they do a good job. If it was a credit card they will most likely take the transaction off of your bill and pursue the seller for it.
 

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Premium Member
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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Guys,

Thanks for your help, I have emailed the supplier, I will now wait to see what happens.

If I have issues and I feel others may have them and the moderators are happy with me naming the company I will let you know.

I'm sure it will now be resolved quickly now that I know my rights.

Colin
 

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Tom Brown (Scorpus Flex)
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1,214 Posts
Just to point out as it is related I recently came across something saying that the post office now offers no insurance for lost packages that are not signed for or recorded.

I think in your case it is the sellers responsibility to post your parcel using a service with adequate insurance. I can see how they say wait to see if it turns up in a few days I think that is standard policy. Any proper retailer should post you out a replacement within 2 weeks of the package not arriving and then wait for the insurance coming off their own back. I would be very unhappy to receive the same level of service you have had.
 

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Premium Member
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If I understood the email from Gary at MRE right , they do not even do that now.

I skim read it and ought to go and read it again, but from the tone it suggested that unless you pay for Special Delivery there is no form of compensation for lost/damaged packages.
 

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Phil Smith
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2,626 Posts
I have not heard that the Royal Mail were dropping there insurance cover for first class items, but I had heard that they were no longer fixing it to 100 x the cost of a first class stamp from April this year.

Anyway this is from the Royal Mail website

"CompensationFor items posted with Royal Mail which have no intrinsic value, or where a customer cannot provide evidence of posting, there will be compensation for loss, damage and delay of a minimum of 6 x 1st class stamps at the first weight step. In the event of a compensation claim for loss we will refund the postage paid or 6 x 1st class stamps at the first weight step, whichever is greater.

For lost or damaged items that have an intrinsic value, with evidence of posting with Royal Mail (such as a certificate of posting) and evidence of value (such as an invoice or receipt) customers will be entitled to a postage refund plus compensation for actual loss up to the value of the item, or 100 x 1st class stamps at the first weight step, whichever is the lowest;"


It also seems that any changes made will only affect Business Contract Users, here is an extract from a press release in September last year

"3 -Proposed changes to compensation for business contract customers:
 No change to the compensation amounts available for consumers or small businesses that send stamped and franked mail is proposed
 Currently business customers can claim up to 100 times the value of a First Class stamp (£46) in cases where an untracked letter or parcel is lost or damaged
 Compensation for Royal Mail Tracked® services is currently up to 100 times the value of a First Class stamp (£46)
 Customers who send higher value items can continue to use the Special Delivery™ service, where compensation of up to £500 is available as part of the basic price. Enhanced compensation of up to £2,500 is available for an additional fee
 None of the proposed changes are relevant to Parcelforce Worldwide. It is not regulated in the same way
 This application does not affect the delay compensation scheme linked to Royal Mail's quality of service performance in place for bulk mail customers
 This application does not affect the compensation scheme for businesses that use Royal Mail's delivery service through a downstream access agreement
 The claims period for international items will remain at six months"


Go here to see the current Royal Mail compensation table for UK users.

I am not sure where Gary has got his information that changes have taken place from the 9th January where no compensation is paid, I have regular updates from the Royal Mail and have not been advised of any such changes.
 

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Premium Member
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" ROYAL MAIL POST CHANGES .Bad news this week from Royal Mail - from Monday 9 January 2012 Royal Mail no longer pay any compensation for lost or late parcels in the UK unless a fully tracked service such as Special Delivery is used. Other Couriers only pay compensation if you pay for extra insurance cover ! We have typically used Royal Mail Recorded Delivery to post your UK orders, and this service no longer allows for any compensation. We are currently reluctant to increase your postage costs by using Special Delivery or Royal Mail Tracked so we are offering the option of additional carriage insurance which provides cover up to £250."

I've not been able to get into Royal Mails site so far today, but maybe this means compensation above and beyond the value of the item. I thought, however, that that was always the case. I always paid for "Consequential Loss Insurance" for anything extra.
 

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Premium Member
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1,780 Posts
Regardless of Royal Mail policy, isn't that the seller's problem?

Who would buy from anyone who says 'sorry your tough luck it's lost, you didn't pay for insurance etc.' if an item you bought and paid for never turned up. Surely it would be the last order you ever place with them.

I can't believe any serious business seller would have that kind of policy, do they? Looking at the distance selling regulations posted above they wouldn't even be allowed to behave in this way, after 30 days a refund should be given.
 

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Phil Smith
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2,626 Posts
Your right Marlon any business that refuses to refund in these circumstances won't last long.
After all I would guess that the value was less than £46 (or it would surely have been sent Special Delivery) and it must be better to lose £46 than a customer!

I have just made my daily trip to the Post Office with parcels and they know nothing of any changes to the compensation rules and have no record of any changes on their computer systems.
Not sure where MRE have got their info from.
 

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Registered
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This is very simple....

If you bought the items through your credit card then you will be able to go through your credit card company. Normally, you have 60 days to sort this out. It is the responsibility of the seller not the customer. Needless to say, if they have a tracking number and can prove your item was delivered then you have no grounds. A credit card company will jump on this for you and force them to give your money back. Normally, the credit card company will refund you quickly and go after the seller leaving them (credit card company) with the problem rather than you. I believe it also works on a check as well. I feel your pain brother but check out your bank or credit card company.
 

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David H
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QUOTE (SplitRim @ 17 Jan 2012, 09:34) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>" ROYAL MAIL POST CHANGES .Bad news this week from Royal Mail - from Monday 9 January 2012 Royal Mail no longer pay any compensation for lost or late parcels in the UK unless a fully tracked service such as Special Delivery is used. Other Couriers only pay compensation if you pay for extra insurance cover ! We have typically used Royal Mail Recorded Delivery to post your UK orders, and this service no longer allows for any compensation. We are currently reluctant to increase your postage costs by using Special Delivery or Royal Mail Tracked so we are offering the option of additional carriage insurance which provides cover up to £250."
I saw the quote above in MRE's newsletter. Nobody should be misled into believing that they must or should purchase extra insurance in order to cover themselves. The seller remains responsible until the purchaser receives a posted item. If the seller suggests otherwise, or makes you believe that their reluctance to pay for an adequately insured delivery service means you're not fully covered, they are wrong. I don't like the way that some sellers try to pass the buck for insurance on to their customers. Retailers that run a mail order business must accept the costs of so doing and set their prices accordingly. The risk of posting an item inadequately insured is their risk, not yours as buyer.
 

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Phil Smith
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2,626 Posts
But where has MRE got this info from, I have had no news from the Royal Mail about these changes (I get regular updates because I am a Smartstamp user) there is nothing on the their website about this and my local post office knows nothing about it!
 

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Phil Smith
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Ok I think I've found it, these changes only affect 'Business Conract Users' so I gues MRE must have a business contract with the Royal Mail for it's services.
They do not affect normal private users or users of the Smartstamp system.
Here are the details from Royal Mail

"Compensation for loss or damage of untracked contract items
We will no longer pay compensation for the loss or damage of items sent using contract services that do not include a tracking element. This includes both domestic and international services, and is in line with industry standards. Compensation is still available for loss or damage of stamped and franked items, and tracked services (Special Delivery, Royal Mail Tracked, International Signed For and Airsure). The range of packet services we offer gives you a choice of delivery speeds, tracking capability and levels of compensation. This change does not affect stamped and franked services.

From To When
Loss and damage compensation of up to 100 x the value of a 1st class stamp on all services. No loss or damage compensation available with untracked contract services. 9th January 2012 "


The important line for non contract users is
'Compensation is still available for loss or damage of stamped and franked items'

so that's that mystery cleared up
 

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Ewan McKen
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1,448 Posts
The Royal Mail Website states that the compensation for 'Recorded Signed For' is limited to the fee paid.

It then contradicts itself in Compensation Tables where it states the compensation for ''Recorded Signed For' is the same as 1st Class.

Regards,
Ewan
 

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WRP World Champ 2015/2016
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Wonder which one they would apply if you claimed, Ewan? Lol.

this suggests you are covered more comprehensively with 1st Class than Recorded, or am I misunderstaning that?

(Thanks for the sterling efforts digging all this data up, folks).
 
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