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Manufacturer Bashing As Always

5796 Views 88 Replies 30 Participants Last post by  Doug, 
G
To begin with Tropi, if you want an example of admission of a problem for Fly see my previous postings with reference to GT40 chassis. If there is a problem I will let you know here and also let you know what is going to be done about it and how Gaugemaster and members of the forum can possibly help each other. This was the point of me joining the forum and a thread in the News section is there for you to ask questions etc..

However, like many forums of many different types, they tend to be used by a very small minority of people of which some have an axe to grind or will find one if they possibly can. I am not on the forum to promote my own products unlike other manufacturers that feature here, nor am I here to say how wonderful I am and how experienced I am in the world of slot racing unlike others who write here. I am the first to admit that I have not been involved with slot cars for very long. However, I do have resources to be able to assist in many ways.

I can give you MY view on a product. The opinions and notes I put on these pages are my own, and not neccessarily that of Gaugemaster. To this end, I can say if a car is good or bad and express it as my opinion. I think the New Fly BMW CSL and the Ferrari are excellent, but I am not so keen of the Fly Racing series - not because there is a problem, I just tend to collect and not race so they are not my cup of tea. There are too many people here stating what they think are facts but have no back-up for what they are saying, so they may as well not bother. The manufacturers do look at the various forums around the world (not just this one) and constructive criticism is taken on board, but what amazes me is that any of you seem to think that in companies like Fly there is someone who draws a Ferrari, thinks to himself 'oh, that is near enough' and then promptly goes and makes it!! Have some common sense! Every one of the large companies has teams of people taking drawings, making block models, prototypes, moulds etc. It is not just done with a pencil and back of a newspaper. There are limitations on producing a model slot car as regard to detailing, and fitting a can motor inside a plastic bodyshell which may well throw the model out by a couple of millimetres, but that is hardly the end of civilisation as we know it (although reading some of these posts you would think the world was at an end because of it).

The next thing on the agenda after Fly bashing is Fly moaning. Having spent weeks saying that the Fly whatever is so inaccurate it is untrue, many of you then start moaning that the next Fly model is a week late being released! Its not just Fly either, as many of the manufacturers come in for the same sort of criticism.

I think it is time that many of you started to realise that the manufacturers are there to produce what you want to buy, and they will listen IF you are constructive, but if continual slagging off is all they can expect then they will make what they like and not what you want. After all, just because the few that read this forum don't buy their car, whether it is a Fly, a Ninco or a Scalextric, do you think they are really worried? Slot car manufacturers are a BUSINESS, not a hobby, and they do not need your permission to make a slot car. However, they will play ball with you if you play ball with them.

This forum needs a way of reviewing models in a standard way: same circuit, same tests, SAME REVIEWER!!. Without these then reviews are very personal and everyone has an opinion on what is good and what is bad. Gaugemaster stopped supplying cars for review for the NSCC magazine as the reviews were few and far between and we fast got the impression that the reviewer was just using us to build upon his own collection of slot cars.

Nuro and Swissracer have done some excellent reviews - the ones on the Fly GT40, Slot It Porsche and Fly Corvette were all extremely good. Yes, they criticised the products and praised them too, but were fair and constructive in what they had to say. I have sent the two Fly reviews to Fly so they can see for themselves.

Apart from all that, I very much get the feeling that for certain forum members, nothing could ever be right - unless they made it themselves and then it would be perfect in every way. To these members I suggest they grow up and get into the real world, and Jonny S is quite right - at the end of the day these are toy cars. Highly detailed, motorised, but nevertheless toy cars.

Lastly, I am not on the forum to defend Fly or anyone else against 'opinions' as everyone has their opinions as do I and I respect that. However, I am here to help if I can, but you will also need to help yourselves if you want to be heard. Simple Fly/Ninco/Carrera/Scalextric or whoever bashing will not help your cause and will make you look ridiculous not only in the eyes of the manufacturers, but in the eyes of those many members who read these forums and do not neccessarily post. It is those people who you all should be encouraging to come into the hobby, as the more voices you have the louder you can shout and get yourself heard, yet they come here, see it is just a load of people slagging each other and the manufacturers and probably think to themselves that it is a bit of a childrens tea party.

Whilst I realise that this posting will not be popular with some, I guess there are others who agree with me and can see the logic of what I am saying. Assuming they post here, this at least will give me some idea of whose posts to the forums I should take seriously and who I should take with a pinch of salt.

Aaron
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B
You simply forget one thing: There ARE people like me (and I think not just a few) who complain but also buy a LOT of cars.

With the recent boom of slotracing there are many, many brands showing up, all having more or less attractive and quality products. When I'm "moaning" or criticizing cars/brands, then not just to bash them or bring them down.

Buying a lot of cars, I reserve the RIGHT to express my feelings about bad/ugly/whatecver cars, because I feel I'm one of the customers that helped making slotracing thios popular and a good business for many companies. But if they wanna stay alive and vivid, I feel some of them just have to improve, if they still wanna see my good money. And most of them, comapnies AND dealers like you, NEED my good money and people who are willing to spend 200, 300€ a month for this hobby. So they have to listen, but I feel especially those spanish guys don't want to - maybe they're just too proud. But IMO it's a bad time to bee too proud if you're in a business that can be dead the very next day.
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A
I've probably posted too much on this topic already..

Firstly, thanks again aaron for replacement chassis for my pair of fly gt40s

I am glad that constructive criticism is appreciated, about the shape and running of cars, but a few paragraphs later you defend fly's shape.

I have never commented on the daytona's shape, cos i don't know the original. The GT40 (1:1) is my fav car, and it seems to be generally accepted the shape is incorrect.

There are many arguements given to defend shape inaccuracies - like making sure it runs fast on the track, like making room for the internal mechanisms etc.

However, as we know, scalextric have already made a GT40 that has gone down with almost universal praise. Its shape is right in general look, people haven't niggled over it, and it runs very wel indeed.

In fact, I think you will be hard pushed to find the shape or scale criticisms about scalextric or revell on these boards. That isn't cos we don't care about the shape of these cars, but because they are certainly very close to the correct shape.

Fly do offer fantastic detail and finishing, and higher prices (due to spanish rather than chinese production, presumably), and they have also produced cars that seem to have been pleasing to the 'rivet counters' - eg the saleen, and apparently the corvette too.

But I think the reason there i so much noise about fly shape is that there really is a problem, theres no smoke without fire. I personally think that if the bashing element is a problem to the hobby and to the board, then the advice should be 'Tell us the shape is wrong, but be constructive' rather than 'shut up and stop ur moaning'
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G
QUOTE think it is time that many of you started to realise that the manufacturers are there to produce what you want to buy, and they will listen IF you are constructive, but if continual slagging off is all they can expect then they will make what they like and not what you want. After all, just because the few that read this forum don't buy their car, whether it is a Fly, a Ninco or a Scalextric, do you think they are really worried? Slot car manufacturers are a BUSINESS, not a hobby, and they do not need your permission to make a slot car. However, they will play ball with you if you play ball with them.

They do market studies and have to consider licensing availability and associated costs and then manufacture what they think will sell. A good release is also one that they can get good mileage out of with dozens of different liveries. They do not produce what we want to buy. If that was the case Scaley we would have had a race partner for their GT40 by now, we still dont have a choice of classic F1's (well done Vanquish for at least getting the ball rolling) but what we do have are more 908's, 917's and GT40's than you can shake a Parma controller at.

"They will listen if you are constructive" "but if you slag them off they will make what they want" "they will play ball with you if you play ball with them"


They will listen to all types of feedback. I am sure they look just as closely at the negatives because they are the best guides to improving the business and they will never make what they want, they will always make what they think will sell.
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G
Aaron,
since you bought this up the whole point of a reveiw is to tell it as it is If you don't like the review to bad as long as it is fair and just.

If their is a fault in a model it is the job of the person writting the review to point this out. This is not Fly bashing or Fly moaning this writting a review otherwise I would work in advertising and write adverts for Fly.

Your complete refusal to see the shape of the Ferrari is completely wrong show why it is so important to have independant review written by poeple who know about slot car/real cars.

Any toy company who put out a model so out of shape as this would rightly get a right going over in the model press. I have nothing against any slot company and most of the time Fly good a great job but that does not mean they are above criticism. It is no good blaming the reviewer if the model is wrong it is not his fault. Don't shot the messager blame the right person FLY.

Jeff.
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M
QUOTE Gaugemaster stopped supplying cars for review for the NSCC magazine as the reviews were few and far between and we fast got the impression that the reviewer was just using us to build upon his own collection of slot cars.

That is just awful Aaron! Did you actually bring this to someones attention on the commitee? 99% of the people I have met in this great hobby are selfless sorts who often do a lot of great things without any real recognition for their efforts. Unfortunately that leaves 1% of the selfish type, just out for what they can get and it sounds like this individual falls into that category.

I have done one review for the NSCC and I still get a twinge of guilt when I look at the car and realise all I had to do to get it was write a few words!

Mortified Mr.M
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G
I agree with Mr M, this is a very serious charge, now Brian who edites the NSSC mag is a hardwork and completely trustworthy person and he hands out most of the review cars I sure he would have noticed is he was giving out cars and not getting reviews back What did he say?
I have never meet anyone on the NSSC commitee who do not have our hobby interest at heart.

RR
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F
If you don't like the Daytona, Gt-40 or any other car, DON'T BUY IT!!

Read the reviews, make your choice. No-one buys a car without at the very least seeing a photo of it.

For sure, express your opinions but for heavens sake, once expressed, let it lie, move on and get a life.

Frosty
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G
Thank you Frosty "read the reviews, make your choice" this why reviews are so important because that what a lot of poeple go on, to buy or not to buy a model.

RR
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Wankel Ickx
With just that one post I think GG has cut to the chase and his analysis of this board and its' members (myself included) is spot on.

So many bits warrant re-reading.

QUOTE After all, just because the few that read this forum don't buy their car, whether it is a Fly, a Ninco or a Scalextric, do you think they are really worried? Slot car manufacturers are a BUSINESS, not a hobby, and they do not need your permission to make a slot car.

Oh, bravo sir.

Thing is, and this is the thing, there will always be folks of differing opinion on every topic under the sun. Those that post hereabouts are a distilled, polarised and wierd breed. We do not represent the mass market that the makers tilt at.

Bib, can't agree on the Scaley GT-40. Don't care for mine and I'm sick of gluing bits back on. And is their Mustang really that accurate? Looks mighty long and thin to me - as the actress said to he vicar.

See? Disagreement and personal opinion. Ain't it great?
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G
Jeff, read what I have written before you comment - I am not suggesting that reviews should be constant praise - I am suggesting that they should be fair and CONSTRUCTIVE. Nor am I suggesting Fly are above criticism. If you read my first post properly you will see that. My opinion on the Ferrari is MY OPINION, and I respect that everyone has their own opinion. My gripe is that if someone is going to quote something they believe is fact, unless they have a source of reference it is irrelevant as fact and is just an opinion.

I wonder how it is that I so often find in these forums that members shout before reading properly and I have to end up repeating myself over and over? Then members tell me that they are always fair in their postings and comments. Somehow these two statements do not agree.

Mr.M, you are quite right, it is an appalling situation. At the time, we did contact the committee over this but did not get any replies. Our other gripe was that for every 5 cars we sent, we would be lucky to get one review which generally was a Fly bashing exercise. I will not name this reviewer as it is water under the bridge now, but no, it was not Brian from the NSCC. Bear in mind this was two or three years ago. Enough said on this matter.

We are quite happy to send you models for review, and I am sure that Fly would be of the same opinion, but do you really think they would get a fair trial? Certainly some of the members here would not be able to do that. However, if Nuro or Swissracer want to contact me I will happily provide them with a car every now and then to review.

Astro, you mention
QUOTE However, as we know, scalextric have already made a GT40 that has gone down with almost universal praise. Its shape is right in general look.The GT40 (1:1) is my fav car, and it seems to be generally accepted the shape (of the Fly version) is incorrect.
yet the review on this very forum says
QUOTE Immediately we can see the vast differences between the two offerings and quickly the Fly overtakes on scale looks and detail correctness (Fly car on left in each case, Scalextric on the right). Shape of openings, grille detailing etc. Although both models are showing dimension inaccuracies that can be put down to model design constraints (fitting of motor).
and
QUOTE The fly GT-40 looks more correct than the Scalextric model
so where do we go from here? We are back to the same point - everyone has their opinions, and it would be very sad if we did not. After all, 1984 is still a long way off.
Aaron
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G
Aaron, did you not read Philippe post the body is wrong according to his measurements that is a fact not an opinion. This the last word on this I will write.

RR
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M
Not wishing to grind an axe for or against Fly cars, I have refrained from joining in - until now.
Why now?
Because of the following.

Aaron says
QUOTE The opinions and notes I put on these pages are my own, and not necessarily that of Gaugemaster.
Sorry, but that is not realistic. To officially represent Gaugemaster Controls and, under that very same name, to claim independence from them is not possible. An employee of Gaugemaster, using their company name, must necessarily be constrained to supporting the company line and quite rightly so! One way to resolve this two-way ambiguity could be to post completely separately as Gaugemaster Controls and, under a different name, as an independent individual.
I see similar ambiguity, where those individuals who hope to gain benefit from one or more manufacturers can be clearly seen to immediately jump to their defence in any and all disputes on the board. All of this is money driven. Not to say that money is not important, but simply to recognize clearly and honestly the reality of what drives some of the contributions that we see.

QUOTE bashing will not help your cause and will make you look ridiculous not only in the eyes of the manufacturers, but in the eyes of those many members who read these forums and do not necessarily post
Strong stuff indeed.
We need a definition of 'bashing'.
On a purely logical basis, the quote appears to define bashing as any criticism with which the writer disagrees. Then, using that same principle, it must follow that disagreeing with the criticisms is equally 'bashing' those who dared to voice them. There is NO difference.
If one party looks 'ridiculous', then equally, so must the other.

With regard to the Daytona, a previous thread claimed some significant factual errors in basic dimensions - most notably the body to hood (bonnet) proportions. Actual figures were put on the claimed variances and that was neither personal opinion nor 'bashing'. I would prefer to see those figures either disproved or acknowledged. But, to date, they have been ignored. Ignoring them might be considered the only way to deal with an awkward situation. But it does tend to leave a strong impression that the errors are real and that the manufacturer simply doesn't care one way or the other.
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E
Can I just say this is boring the pants off me.

Everyone is welcome to hold and express an opinion, but why must some go on trying to beat everyone into holding the same opinion.

I wonder just how many of these strident comments would be made face to face.

Scott
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T
QUOTE Can I just say this is boring the pants off me.
Having seen a graphic example of this in a steamy Icelandic pool, I take it on myself, as a matter of duty and care for my fellow-man, to warn you dear innocent souls out there, that this is NOT a pretty sight!
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J
2
I agree with Scott. That point not only applies to this thread but elsewhere too. To go on pulling this apart is boring and damaging in my opinion. I suggested that SF adopts a more professional approach to reviews and I stand by that. Better still I`m gonna do one. I`ve said before you need to settle on a criteria as a basis of assessment as that`s what a review translates to. Needs to be objective. I`m sorry but I don`t need too much of an expert opinion from any `expert` concerning dimensions. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder so I`ll always wait til I see the car in the flesh. I want a review to tell me about the model and how it performs based on a proper assessment, this is very much what NSCC Brian asks.

The thought that someone wants to take a measure using callipers on a toy slot car is crackers and defines an approach to this hobby that I want no part of. Aaron and others are justified in stating that there is a level of Fly bashing because there is a lot going on,not just here, and it is not deserved.

I`ve written reviews for the NSCC and then free raffled the cars (every one) to the club and made it plain the car was donated by the distibutor. Nuro `s policy made clear to me by e mail, is that SF wil not accept freely donated models from anywhere thus retaining complete independance. We all buy enough cars so that shouldn`t be a problem then


I agree completely with Aarons point concerning reading the posts properly.It`s good advice and I am as guilty as any for shooting from the hip and then get fed up when my posts are misinterpreted. The written word isn`t always the best way to convey opinions but I feel a positive approach by enthusiasts with no hidden agenda is good enough for me.
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Swissracer
It seems to me that a few major points are being overlooked in this review issue.

The first being that why do people wishing to do reviews tend to think someone should provide the material for them for free?
MUCH better IMHO to buy the car and review it if you want to but ONLY if it is a car you would like to own.
In my opinion if you ask for and receive a car from a shop then you can't be honest if the car is not good and have to put it in at least a reasonable light. If you do not you are not doing the shop any favours and are unlikely to get more.
If you ask for and get one from a Distributor or Manufacturer then all well and good, just ensure you are Neutral (a more accurate word than 'fair' in this instance) and constructive in criticism. An intelligent and well thought out approach will always get listened to over a bland / personally negative and 'nothing new to say' one.
But think on it from their point of view, is it really on for them to send one of everything they produce just to get a review from someone they don't know and have no idea of the quality and style they produce?
Reviews help people decide and help the Manufacturers develop product lines, but in the long run they do not really affect sales too much, that is the domain of advertising and hype; something which Forums ARE very good at producing.

The second issue is scale, I can see where some points of view come from. Yes it would be absolutely wonderful if every car was scale perfect in every detail but this, in reality, is impossible in a market aimed at mass production (more within the realms of possibility if the items produced are aimed at a specific and smaller target audience). Remember also that with true scale some elements simply do not look correct when scaled down so adjustments have to be made alongside and in addition to the 'fit' issues with chassis / motor.
I will take the GT40 as an example simply because most that read here have seen or handled them.
Two Manufacturers make them currently, both versions are off scale to some extent in one area or another AND have historical inconsistencies. This is down to acceptable perception by each development team within their given parameters I am sure. But visually, the personal take comes into play with buyers and one is always slated as better than the other. A view which changes from opinion to opinion.

Simply saying "I have seen the real version of this car and compared it to the model (and so has this or that authority) so I am right" means little or nothing, lets see some pictorial proof for those that really are bothered about it. For those that accept the car for what it ultimately is, regardless of how the word 'Toy' is used or validated, well they can buy or not and enjoy or not.

Lastly I disagree that reviews should be done by one person. BUT, there SHOULD be conformity for at least part of each review.

Specifications, performance and dimensions should always be laid out accurately and preferably in a way that, over time, a useful and meanigful database can be built up. After that should come the full on review in whatever style the writer prefers. Ideally a test track shape and size would be agreed, one that can be replicated in any track system, but that is a 'Holy Grail' to be sure.

SlotForum are actively working on this format issue and as soon as we have something to put forward you can be assured we will do so and allow a comments and suggestions period before putting it in place.

My take on 'Bashing' and 'Criticising' :

Bashing - constant, ill thought out and inane negative comments that add little or nothing to the Forum or Post: "This is crap because it is made by so and so and too long"
Criticising - Well thought out, intelligent and constructive (possible whether negative OR positive) comment aimed at furthering the Thread: "The first version of the GT40 MKI had a different chassis to the next livery, why is that? was it because the initial chassis layout seemd to strip gears more often when magnet racing?"

Those are just examples and maybe extreme but you hopefully get the drift. It is also possible to overdo it with praise that is unwarranted or pointless, the reaction to this tends to be many more people responding with the opposite argument because they feel it balances the issue - think first - post later


Same goes for Manufacturers publically criticising each other, I don't think it is really on. If you want to make comment then use another ID as your writings might be taken as being overly unjust due to a conflict of interest.

I will add here also, as it seems pertinant, that it has come to our (Nuro and Myself) attention that people are quoting SlotForums name when approaching Shops, Distributors and Manufacturers for freebies to review.

This is not something the Admin like or agree with. We have NO fulltime Official Reviewers (not even Myself and Nuro) nor do we automatically accept any review sent to us, so telling someone you are doing a review for SlotForum and making it sound Official is misrepresentation - please desist.

We are actively telling the suppliers, in whatever capacity, that we do not condone this and they should refuse.
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G
Swissracer, I just wanted to say..
QUOTE just ensure you are Neutral (a more accurate word than 'fair' in this instance) and constructive in criticism.
Excellent, this is the point I am trying to get across.
QUOTE Yes it would be absolutely wonderful if every car was scale perfect in every detail but this, in reality, is impossible in a market aimed at mass production (more within the realms of possibility if the items produced are aimed at a specific and smaller target audience). Remember also that with true scale some elements simply do not look correct when scaled down so adjustments have to be made alongside and in addition to the 'fit' issues with chassis / motor.
Just what I have been saying all along!

Thank you


Aaron
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2
Only a few personal thoughts :
- I think that people commercially involved should stay at the side of the street and watch carefully what is happening, without take part but only offering some useful (and greatly appreciated !!) informations;
- What is a toy? Soon or after someone here says that these are only toys; I think not; a Marklin series 1 train which costs 2000 euro is a toy?A R/C plane is a toy?
Surely kids buy slot cars, but the manifacturers build them with us, the adults, in their mind, and scale accuracy, or scale "look and feel" is the first issue; I agree with Mr. PdL and I like very much when he shares with us his knowledge of models and real cars of the past.

- Lastly, when a new model is available ( and even before !), we make frantic and hard discussions on ever the smallest detail of it; one or two weeks later all fade away and new models are our objective; I would like more words and experiences on the real life of models when they run on the tracks in the following months; an example : I have bought the new Mono/Revell Corvettes; they are good looking models and I like them, but no one in our Club use them seriously on the track because they have poor brakes; on the other hand, all of us seem to like Scalextric Minis and the new Dallaras, so we are planning enduro races ( one to three hours ) with them; soon after I will report the problems encountered in the race, hoping you will like it.
Ciao
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J
To answer your question regarding the examples you set out...yes they are all toys. What they cost matters not. There should not be a problem with using the toy word or have a stigma about playing. It reduces stress and is healthy human behaviour and lets face it a lot cheaper than real motor racing. Oh how I know that to be true.
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