[pertti jarla]

Today I received an old Monogram 1:32 Porsche 904. Released in late 1964 you should expect it to have the later type FT16 motor, X-100. This can is certainly Monogram, but also clearly an earlier type FT16. This cannot be a rare type of motor, and it makes me wonder if early FT16 Mabuchis were used in the first year 1/32 Monograms, and also called "X-100"?

 

[dgersh]

Pertti,

Not sure what you mean by earlier and later type FT16 motors - all the early Monogram cars used this basic X100 Tiger motor, the Mabuchi FT16 with blind bearing, no heat sinks and endbell drive.

Revell had a slightly different FT16 at the beginning, but as far as I know Monogram only had this one type of motor for all first 1/32 and 1/24 cars, before the 1/24 models got the larger X200...

After that, Monogram went to the can-drive 16D, and a new chassis, and the Porsche came in both version, like many of their other 1/32 cars.

Don

 

[pertti jarla]

QUOTE (dgersh @ 3 Jan 2012, 20:21) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Not sure what you mean by earlier and later type FT16 motors - all the early Monogram cars used this basic X100 Tiger motor, the Mabuchi FT16 with blind bearing, no heat sinks and endbell drive.

By the early FT16 I mean the one with an irregular, unplated lamination stack like Revell SP500, giving about 20000rpm. The later FT16 had a plated, evenly stacked lamination, like Revell SP510-X, giving 30000rpm. The performance difference is pretty noticeable! Here is more:
http://www.theindependentscratchbuilder.co...hi%20Motors.htm

To test the speed of the motor in the photo I have to clean it up first.

 

[bwaminispeed]

No, that is the early one, as you said, with the ratty looking stack.

I believe these motors eventually got the better stacks (same wind), and, the better com, before the X110 series came out (Revell 510X, Russkit 23 etc.). These later motors, had the better stacks, better com hotter wind, and better brush holders.

Don, the early motors were all the same, Revell SP500, Monogram X100, Russkit 22 etc. The ONLY difference was the can colour.

 

[TSRF]

Indeed the picture is of the FIRST type FT16, used by Monogram and Revell.
The second series used a much better armature with better lamination and commutator. Both Russkit ("22") Monogram and Revell, as well as Cox and numerous other companies used the second series motor.
In 1965, the FT16D came out and used the same armature as the second series motor in an improved, thicker can and a new endbell with better brush setup. This was used by K&B, Russkit ("23"), Cox (TTX150), Monogram (X150) and many others.
In 1966, the FT16DBB came out with a much better can and magnets, the can being nickel plated in all cases except the few motor samples made for Classic that were painted in orange. It retained the same endbell as on the FT16D. This motor can be found in late series Monogram kits, Carrera 1/24 scale kits... plus all the Magnum 88 rewinds by Mura. a truly rare issue was this motor rewound by Mura for Dynamic. The stock motors used two different arms, one with brown, one with larger red wire.
In 1967, the last FT16DBB motors were produced for Champion with only one venting hole, dual shaft, first in nickel plated form, then all black including their endbells.

 

[Mirrorman]

Thanks fellas, I always felt that there was more to this whole thing than just basic visual and performance differences between a FT16 and a FT16D.

Very Interesting !!

Cheers, Michael

 

[pertti jarla]

Thanks for the info. And as we all have seen later type FT16 Monogram X-100 motors like this one,

I must assume that unlike Revell, Monogram used the same name X-100 on two different motors.

 

[dgersh]

Pertti,

I had always assumed that Revell already had the two versions under the SP500 label, and that the SP510X was a further upgrade to the same basic motor.

I didn't realize that Monogram also had this first "rusty" version of the X100 - thought they were all the slightly improved version with better metal... will have to go look in my boxes!

Don

 

[bwaminispeed]

You are correct Don, I have both Rusty stack and Clean stack SP500s, Monogram X100, and, Russkit22s.

510X had the better brush hoods.

 

[pertti jarla]

QUOTE (bwaminispeed @ 4 Jan 2012, 20:19) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>You are correct Don, I have both Rusty stack and Clean stack SP500s, Monogram X100, and, Russkit22s.

510X had the better brush hoods.

So, was it:
FT16, rusty stack: SP500, Monogram X-100
FT16, plated stack: SP500, Monogram X-100, Russkit 22
FT16, plated stack, hotter wind, better brushholders: SP510-X, Russkit 22, Monogram X-100, Cox TT-X100

Monogram X-110 was 16-D.

 

[bwaminispeed]

No, Russkit 22 was also Rusty stack.

FT16, rusty stack: SP500, Monogram X-100 (Ruskit 22)
FT16, plated stack: SP500, Monogram X-100, Russkit 22
FT16, plated stack, hotter wind, better brushholders: SP510-X, Russkit 23, Monogram X-110, Cox TT-X100 (Not sure on the cox, think it was TTX100) Don't think Cox ever had a Rusty stack version.

 

[dgersh]

Are you sure the Russkit was Rusty Al? I've never seen any of this type Russkit, and since they came out a bit later I thought they would be the slightly more advanced version... They're faster than the earlier Revell and Monogram motors too...

Don

 

[bwaminispeed]

Yes, I have at least one rusty stack R22.

 

[pertti jarla]

QUOTE (bwaminispeed @ 5 Jan 2012, 01:18) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>FT16, plated stack, hotter wind, better brushholders: SP510-X, Russkit 23, Monogram X-110, Cox TT-X100 (Not sure on the cox, think it was TTX100) Don't think Cox ever had a Rusty stack version.

OK, thanks. You are the expert and I am not, but I still have to claim that Monogram X-110 was FT16D. See, for example, the Monogram instruction sheets here:
http://www.vsrnonline.com/Library/Monogram/index.html

 

[bwaminispeed]

By far no expert here, just going by what I remember, and, looking at my cars.

Now I come to think of it, I don't think I have ever seen a Monogram FT16 motor with the improved brush gear. Don is probably correct that Monogram used X-100 for the first two versions of this motor, unlike Revell and Russkit.

I did just find a light silver painted motor in a Revell chassis/car (doesn't necessarily mean it's a Revell motor, but, they did have silver cans later on) which is just a plain ft16 with the early style (none heatsink) brushes. Seams a bit out of sequence to me, as, I thought the silver paint was later for Revell.

 

[pertti jarla]

QUOTE (bwaminispeed @ 5 Jan 2012, 19:20) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>I did just find a light silver painted motor in a Revell chassis/car (doesn't necessarily mean it's a Revell motor, but, they did have silver cans later on) which is just a plain ft16 with the early style (none heatsink) brushes. Seams a bit out of sequence to me, as, I thought the silver paint was later for Revell.

Yesterday I found a silver can later type SP500 with the white plastic commutator and all, in a 510-X box. I can't remember if I have put it there or if some seller sold it packaged like that.....

 

[bwaminispeed]

OK, after a quick scrounge around, I came up with 10 Monogram X-100 motors.

2 Early Rusty stacks, all with white nylon com. Plain red painted can.

2 Clean stack with early white nylon com. Plain red painted can.

2 Clean stack, brown plastic com. Plain red painted can.

1 Clean stack, green plastic com. Gold Metalflake red painted can (more like Lipstick pink than true red).

3 Clean stack, brown plastic com. Gold Metalflake red painted can.

The Gold Metalflake paint is rather pinkish, and, the Metalflake is not very obvious, unless you look for it, but, it is definitely there.

Just though I would throw in more confusing info.