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My Policar Build and Adventure - Running Inside Four of Six Lanes

13463 Views 305 Replies 19 Participants Last post by  Charles R, 
Charles R
For a year I have been running slot cars and it appears I'm on a cycle. First the layout, then better cars which led to a better layout which led to even better cars repeated once more. Now I feel I have the cars down pat so it's time for a better (perhaps not?) layout. All of the previous tracks have been Carrera and for the most part I have been very impressed outside of their shoulders. For non-debatable reasons I'm just not a fan or for that matter shoulders at all. Which is why I choose to run the middle of four lanes on the last layout as shown here:

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I absolutely loved this layout (designed by Chris-DSR - tweaked by me) and you can find all of the gory details in my Carrera Analog thread linked in my signature. Which also includes a link to the original Carrera Digital layout. However much like my Digital layout I felt like I had taken it as far as I could and I wanted to continue my journey. I'm not sure this trail is going to turn out better although it's the journey not the destination.

My tables sizes are fixed so instead of bringing tables to six lanes of Carrera I'm going to bring six lanes of Policar to my tables. The layout itself is still in doubt. I have their Policar T004z four lane set on order which I'm hoping will arrive soon. I can use it get familiar with the track and better design my six lane layout. I'll also take the time to see what I can come up with using a track designer. Going six lanes forces your hand into something simple (as in short) and I'm thinking I don't want too sweeping as I'd prefer lap times over one second. :)

UPDATE:

After quite a struggle I ended up with the following. Not what I was originally planning on however fitting six lanes on the tables is rather a challenge. Although beyond one inner curve joint everything fits great and I'm hoping over time it will seal itself (not likely with all of the clips I installed everywhere).

I have only run a few laps in each direction however overall I believe it's a good mix. Counterclockwise is the most sweeping and the two chicanes aren't as much of a challenge when going in the opposite direction. I'd say it's rather sweeping regardless of the lane. Clockwise you have a tight 180 after the straightaway and the chicanes mess with you more (for whatever reason - although it might just be I'm used to run counterclockwise) and finally the sweeping curve before the straightaway is rather tricky. You can't gun it coming of the previous curve or you'll lose it, rather you have to feather it just right as you can maintain your speed as long as you stay smooth. It's much more technical and makes a nice mix. I'm interested in how close the lap times will be between them...

UPDATE II:

Been running for a week or so and so far so good. I was concerned about the layout as it wasn't my first choice however after several hundred laps I'm pleased. I have been running two lanes in one direction and two in the opposite direction. And at times I'll reverse the direction of all four. I think this will help to keep everything fresh as times goes on especially with the layout being rather short (compared to my previous layouts).

I much prefer Policar multilane versus Carrera as the straight/curve clips do their job of keeping the pieces level where Carrera simply keeps them connected. I'm only using four R1 curves however you can easily tell tighter curves are offset by the additional grip of the track. Something like a Policar R1 curve speed wise might relate to a Carrera R3. In essence giving you the same sweeping aspect in a much smaller space.

At this point I'm glad I switched and feel I got lucky with the layout as stated above I think it's a nice mix. One that will hold up rather well.


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MrFlippant
As I believe you have not yet gotten into tire prep, and mostly put cars on the track right out of the box (sans magnets, if present), that difference will pretty much all be down to traction. Carrera's smooth track will naturally have less than a textured track like Policar.
Going to a higher gear ratio will make the car slower but increase torque.
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Charles R
MrFlippant said:
As I believe you have not yet gotten into tire prep, and mostly put cars on the track right out of the box (sans magnets, if present), that difference will pretty much all be down to traction. Carrera's smooth track will naturally have less than a textured track like Policar.
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That's the odd thing. I don't remember the RevoSlot having so much (excessive) torque. Before with Carrera track I didn't see a lot of wheel spin (on take off). I can understand hitting top speed easier. Now it's a different car, tires only have a light sand and my memory might be fuzzy. I remember a car with little torque and never hitting top speed (which is why I ordered the higher gear ratio) and now it seems to be the reverse. Who knows it just might be motor variances as the two or three I had previously all had their own personalities.
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MrFlippant
Just because it wasn't pulling burnouts, doesn't mean there wasn't any wheel spin at full acceleration.
Traction makes MASSIVE differences in car performance. Why else would tire prep be such a huge deal for competitive racing?
At some point, there is so much traction that you have to actually learn to drive differently to avoid wheelies out of the slot or rolling over in the turns rather than sliding out.
But hey, what do I know? ;)
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Dingleberry
Is it possible the rim was spinning in the tire before, and you thought there wasn't much torque?
Or do you glue the tires on all cars you run before running them?
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Charles R
MrFlippant said:
But hey, what do I know? ;)
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If I had to guess I'd say quite a bit. Bottom line the cars before felt like they had a lower gear ratio. Taking off slower and longer to wind up. This guy feels like the opposite. Now the added traction might explain most or all. As in helping the car react faster. Although top end does feel lower... maybe simply because now it gets there sooner. Again different cars so it's impossible to really compare. And now I have a wonderful spur gear I certainly won't install. :)
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Charles R
Dingleberry said:
Is it possible the rim was spinning in the tire before, and you thought there wasn't much torque?
Or do you glue the tires on all cars you run before running them?
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I plead guilty... I don't glue tires. :) Now perhaps the car spun so much I didn't see the torque! Also the previous layout was so different it's hard to judge. It had very little speed changes... you got up to speed and stayed there. Where with this layout a couple of chicanes introduce more variations. That's why I figured the higher gear ratio would help only to find out (for this layout) it might be too high already.
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MrFlippant
While motors certainly do vary, it's not going to be such a difference as you describe unless the previous motor was straight up bad, which is possible, but unlikely for a Revoslot. Similarly, the tire moving on the rim is possible, but also highly unlikely on a Revoslot, as their tires are pretty grippy. That's the kind of thing I can see happening with Scalextric/Carrera/et al, but not the kind of cars you're running now. Of course, gluing is a precursor to truing and treating, so if you ever begin to experiment with tire prep, don't forget that important step.
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Charles R
MrFlippant said:
While motors certainly do vary, it's not going to be such a difference as you describe unless the previous motor was straight up bad, which is possible, but unlikely for a Revoslot. Similarly, the tire moving on the rim is possible, but also highly unlikely on a Revoslot, as their tires are pretty grippy. That's the kind of thing I can see happening with Scalextric/Carrera/et al, but not the kind of cars you're running now. Of course, gluing is a precursor to truing and treating, so if you ever begin to experiment with tire prep, don't forget that important step.
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Of course it's difficult to quantify differences in words. I did see quite the difference between my two previous RevoSlot cars (identical models). I think most of this is simply remembering how it compared to other cars and now I'm comparing it to itself. Compared to the NSR Mosler it crawls off the line and never really accelerates. :) Compared to itself it gets off the line faster than it keeps accelerating so the higher gear ratio isn't desired. It is what it is... whether I explain it well or not. :)

Regarding tire prep I'm not interested in beating anyone and as long as the tires are fairly round (I try) I'm happy. I don't want too much grip since I enjoy being able to control the slide. The NSR Mosler handles fine until it doesn't... the Scaleauto F1 and RevoSlot handle great even when pushed too hard. Now I know you are going to say prep will give me more control... maybe someday.
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beardy56
Charles R said:
Regarding tire prep I'm not interested in beating anyone and as long as the tires are fairly round (I try) I'm happy.
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Even for light sanding they need to be glued, bit a super glue on the end of a cocktail stick run between tyre and rim only adds seconds to the sanding. The tyre is more likely to slip while being sanded if not glued which won't help tyre to wheel grip.
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MrFlippant
Charles R said:
Of course it's difficult to quantify differences in words. I did see quite the difference between my two previous RevoSlot cars (identical models). I think most of this is simply remembering how it compared to other cars and now I'm comparing it to itself. Compared to the NSR Mosler it crawls off the line and never really accelerates. :) Compared to itself it gets off the line faster than it keeps accelerating so the higher gear ratio isn't desired. It is what it is... whether I explain it well or not. :)

Regarding tire prep I'm not interested in beating anyone and as long as the tires are fairly round (I try) I'm happy. I don't want too much grip since I enjoy being able to control the slide. The NSR Mosler handles fine until it doesn't... the Scaleauto F1 and RevoSlot handle great even when pushed too hard. Now I know you are going to say prep will give me more control... maybe someday.
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Hehe, the irony (or whatever) here is that, had those two Revoslots been properly blueprinted and the tires glued, trued, and similarly prepared, they probably would have been a lot closer than their out of the box performance. The number of things that could have been slightly different but greatly affect their individual performances are numerous. Things that you currently prefer to ignore and/or avoid. This is one of the main reasons that competitive racers do all those things. Otherwise, they'd be buying up dozens of cars and picking the best running one of the bunch... something that is not uncommon in "box stock" racing groups until they at least allow basic blueprinting work on cars.

But, like you said... you just like to buy cars and run them as they are out of the box. You are getting exactly what you paid for. ;)
If you ever start adding time (to work on the cars) into the equation, things will change.
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Charles R
MrFlippant said:
Hehe, the irony (or whatever) here is that, had those two Revoslots been properly blueprinted and the tires glued, trued, and similarly prepared, they probably would have been a lot closer than their out of the box performance.
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I guess "out of the box" is being taken apart 100% and reassembled...

But, like you said... you just like to buy cars and run them as they are out of the box.
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I believe the quote was I don't wish to "upgrade" cars... as in tires, motors, etc.
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MrFlippant
A teardown and rebuild, while not strictly necessary for all cars, is certainly not a bad idea, and not a process to be overlooked when trying to get the most out of a new car. But, that's the kind of stuff that's part and parcel for competitive racers. Why do you feel the need to do that while doing (apparently) nothing at all to the tires? Even if you think that treating the tires with oils/whatever is "upgrading" them in some way, how is truing them any different than rebuilding the entire chassis to ensure everything is flat and straight? It is, by definition, the same thing. Making things "true" to their intended nature... for wheels/tires, that means round and concentric to the axle center, which even the best made wheels and tires are not.

I get that this is how you've decided to enjoy the hobby, which is fine. I'm just trying to get my head around the reasoning, particularly in this case where what you won't do is at odds with what you do. "I just don't want to" is also a perfectly acceptable reason, you know. ;)
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Charles R
MrFlippant said:
Why do you feel the need to do that while doing (apparently) nothing at all to the tires?
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I do attempt to see/make sure the tires are relatively round. When I first started I sanded them like crazy and found to a large extent I was just making them smaller with no guarantee they would be that much rounder. Now I could buy "fancy" equipment and get them just right... but to what end? I'm only racing the car against itself and if I'm happy with its handling I have nothing to gain. Also I have found tires shed rubber like crazy (in many cases there appears to be more rubber stuck to the inside of the body than the tire itself) and I might be incorrect but I'm guessing it's self rounding.

As far as treating tires again what do I have to gain if I'm happy with its handling. My goal isn't the fastest car rather one I enjoy driving and in the past cars with "sticker" tires often offered less control.
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MrFlippant
Gotcha.
To clear up one misconception... simply sanding or running the car, no matter how much it sheds in the process, is no guarantee that they become round. Smoother, sure... but eggs are also smooth. ;). A person with the rock steady hands of a brain surgeon can true tires on sandpaper, but the rest of us use a machine to precisely hold the wheels at a set distance from the sanding surface, ensuring that only the high spots get sanded off until it's round. If tires really did true themselves on the track, you'd have a whole lot fewer competitive racers using "fancy machines."

As far as "to what end" I will only say that this current conversation was started by your finding the new Revoslot to perform better on your new Policar track, and not immediately attributing that difference to traction. Even on a high traction surface like Policar, if the tires are not true, it will not be getting as much traction as it can. While you previously were happy with how your Revo had performed on your Carrera track, you are also happy with how it now performs on Policar, possibly more so. By making sure the tires are true, you'll get another boost in performance, even without any black magic treatments to the rubber itself.

In the end, we come up against the law of diminishing returns. The traction gain from Carrera to Policar will be pronounced. The traction gain from truing the tires will be noticeable, but not as pronounced. The traction gain of tire treatment above truing will be again noticed but less pronounced.

I have yet to tear down a Revoslot chassis to the same degree as you have, but I certainly true the tires if I'm planning to compete with it. I count trying to get a better lap on my track as competition. :) If I'm just running the car around, and don't care about lap times and don't plan to race it with the guys, I'll pretty much leave it as out of the package.
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Charles R
MrFlippant said:
To clear up one misconception... simply sanding or running the car, no matter how much it sheds in the process, is no guarantee that they become round. Smoother, sure... but eggs are also smooth.;). A person with the rock steady hands of a brain surgeon can true tires on sandpaper, but the rest of us use a machine to precisely hold the wheels at a set distance from the sanding surface, ensuring that only the high spots get sanded off until it's round.
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It's all to what degree. I'm guessing to some degree remounting the wheels back on the car might end up with a different alignment than the sanding machine. Axle being mounted at an angle, etc. You can take it as far as you want... chassis machine next stop. :)

If tires really did true themselves on the track, you'd have a whole lot fewer competitive racers using "fancy machines."
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Probably more so it's a long process and they want to race.

In the end, we come up against the law of diminishing returns. The traction gain from Carrera to Policar will be pronounced. The traction gain from truing the tires will be noticeable, but not as pronounced. The traction gain of tire treatment above truing will be again noticed but less pronounced.
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True and what you are trying to gain. I'm not 100% convinced more traction equals more enjoyable car. From what I can tell the NSR Mosler's tires have much more traction than the Scaleauto's tires however I enjoy the Scaleauto much more. It lets go sooner however I can control the slide where the NSR once it goes it's gone. I have to wait until it corrects itself. So as far as enjoyable at what point does increased traction become too much like magnets? Or are you saying I will always have more control...
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MrFlippant
Given how long it can take to properly true some tires using a machine... no, I think they'd rather get more laps in with a car than sit at a machine to do the same thing, IF they knew the end result would be an increase in performance. Since that's generally not how it actually works, they spend time truing first. Some go for that nth degree of perfection. Me, I just get them round and don't care much about using finer grits to get a smoother surface. In general, though, the biggest single improvement to be made with any slot car (outside of the right kind of tire for the track) is to make all the wheels/tires true.

And yes... gluing them on is because if the tire moves on the wheel, the trueness will go away, and be even worse than not truing it. This is much more pronounced with plastic wheels than metal, of course, but again... it's necessary for peak performance on any wheel/tire.

And yes... too much traction can also be bad, especially if you're not used to driving a car that doesn't slide much. You currently prefer a little slide, but that might change. Sliding is losing speed, and never the fastest way around a track... but rolling over is certainly worse. ;)
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Charles R
MrFlippant said:
Sliding is losing speed, and never the fastest way around a track... but rolling over is certainly worse. ;)
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Not sure that is always the case. Again it's to what degree. I have turned hundreds/thousands of laps with LapTrax announcing lap times and the fastest have always had a little sliding. Especially when I would concentrate and slowly increase the speed of the car lap after lap.. no slide, little slide (fastest laps) and finally a lot of sliding. At times a lot more slide than I would have guessed. Perhaps it's simply my lousy driving style... as I tend to dive deep into the corner and then hit it after the apex. It worked (for me) in real cars so why not slot cars. :)
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MrFlippant
My rule of thumb, as subjective as it is, is that if it LOOKS like your car is sliding, then it's sliding too much. Yes, a fast lap has some degree of slide, but not so much that you've lost traction. Such sliding tends to look like it's not sliding at all, even though it is, especially if you see a photo or slo-mo video. Better laps always come when you minimize sliding, and nail your brake and acceleration points.
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Charles R
Roguejackal said:
Thunderslot, Thunderslot, Thunderslot!!!!
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I have my RevoSlot up and running and have decided (for now) not to order any more and I'm wondering if the Thunderslot cars more or less perform the same as the Slot.it cars? I realize they aren't the same but if I remember correctly they share a lot of the parts such as the motor. I have only had one Slot.it and I loved the body (Porsche 962 - detailed and lots of depth) however its gearing/motor hit top end in about three feet and I'm not sure I would call it top end. :) That gearing doesn't suit my layout. Pretty sure it is the slowest car (top speed) I've had... even including the NSR Porsche 908/3. Handling seemed fine from what I can remember. Perhaps a tendency to get loose however that might simply be from being so slow I was over pushing it.

I still have MRSlotcar and yet to be released NSR Formula 22 in the mix... plus who knows what!
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beardy56
To a degree, despite what I have written above, I can see where Charles is coming from and the change to Policar track will make his reasons even greater in my opinion. I think the grip from Policar track hides a 1000 sins and unless you are racing on Policar track is not the best for setting yours up on at home. I have now given up using my track for car set up, one reason why I will probably go for a routed layout soon rather than later. I can set a car up that appears to be as smooth as silk with no bounce and very little if any slide and then when I run it on my clubs routed track it has no grip and bounces like a pongo stick.

My trick for using a sanding plate is to hold the car on the sanding pad and move in back and forth in an arc and then just let the car run on the pad, if the car bounces then more sanding is needed, if the car runs smooth under it's own weight they seen to be ok on the club track.
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