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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I just read something on the NASCAR site. In an article on the Petty's using Evernham engines next year, the assertion is made that "Petty Enterprises, the winningest organization in major league motorsports."

How many wins does Ferrari have? How about Steve Kinser and his cousin Karl? How many wins does Porsche have?

I listen to the hyperbole from NASCAR about the greatest drivers on the planet and the belief that the world revolves around NASCAR. Normally I just ignore it. This time I need some answers! I'm going to do some checking and find some proof that there are organizations in major league racing with a better record than NASCARs Petty crew.

I know it's hard to believe, but there are race fans that don't live just for NASCAR. I love many forms of racing, including stock cars. But I am tired of NASCAR shilling itself as the best there is in auto racing.

Signed,
A race fan tired of having NASCAR shoved down his throat!
 

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QUOTE (William C Dukenfield @ 18 Nov 2004, 19:26)winningest
<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

May be a little bit OT but all of all the made-up words that America has graced us with this is the one I detest the most! I mean, try saying it, it even sounds like it's coming from the mouth of an illiterate.

Slightly more on-topic is that I notice that NASCAR no longer refer to past championships as the Winston Cup but as the Nextel Cup. Revisionism is alive and well!

Coop
 

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Brian Ferguson
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QUOTE May be a little bit OT but all of all the made-up words that America has graced us with this is the one I detest the most!

Worse yet is baseball's "World Series" and "World Champions", when only the US and Canada are involved!
 

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QUOTE (Fergy @ 18 Nov 2004, 20:30)Worse yet is baseball's "World Series" and "World Champions", when only the US and Canada are involved!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

But as even this Englishman knows, baseball's World Series is so-named because it's original sponsor was the World newspaper...


Coop
 

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Brian Ferguson
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QUOTE baseball's World Series is so-named because it's original sponsor was the World newspaper...

I won't actually try to dispute that.... it just might be true
.... I am no historian.
But even if it was true....


So.... how about the "IndyCar World Series", named I believe when only 3 countries were involved, and no newspaper
? Personally, I find the use of the word 'world' ridiculous due to obvious implications. Similarly, in the early 1970's, I competed in the Canadian 'Nationals' for go-karting.... everyone in my class was a local competitor! I think there were maybe 7 or 8 guys in the 300+ event entry from out of the province and BC, our westernmost province, had just as many active karters during the regular year as Ontario! Oh yeah..... 'national' champion... I could take pride in that!


I HATE grandiose names for events that can't, or don't, live up to the name. But then.... you already figured that.....
 

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I'm not a NASCAR fan but I'm also not a Formula 1, 2 or 3 fan or Indy car fan. Come to think of it, baseball, basketball, football and golf bore me to tears too


I don't watch TV or listen to the radio but I still get bombarded by the NASCAR advertising machine too. I agree that it's grossly over rated. I mean, they call themselves drivers and stop racing if they see rain?

I think rally car drivers are real drivers. They run under incredibly varied conditions and just keep the throttle open and motor through.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
I'm sorry I hit the hornet's nest so hard the other day. I am a fan of all forms of auto racing. I can name driver, teams, sponsors, and owners in most of the different major forms. I find it hard to swallow the statement that one form is better or that it and its participants are the greatest, winningest, or bestest ever.

It's virtually impossible for us to agree on the greatest driver of all time. This is true simply because all forms have different requirements. John Force may be the greatest in Funny Cars while Steve Kinser is the greatest in Winged Sprints. It's nearly impossible to compare the two.

Every week the commentators will give us some type of a beginner's guide to racing. They'll explain push and loose. Oversteer and understeer, if you chose. They want to inform the new race fan. When they tell me and the new race fan that NASCAR drivers are the greatest in the world, I know better, the new fan wont know what to believe.

Some of the current crop of NASCAR drivers are great. Some are mediocre. Some would do well in other forms of racing. Some would have problems driving home. That's true of most drivers in professional auto racing.

To be honest there are commentators that will shill the crap out of their form. Paul Page would go into a fit of ecstasy if to Hot Wheels were racing side by side.

When my "To much shilling button" gets pushed, I do switch channels. I then thank the race gods that there other forms that I can watch.

You really want an argument? Who was, or is the crappiest driver? I'll pick King Hiro. My second choice would be Dale Jr. I'll be in the bunker.
 

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Brian Ferguson
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QUOTE You really want an argument? Who was, or is the crappiest driver? I'll pick King Hiro. My second choice would be Dale Jr.

Assuming the NASCAR fans haven't already linched you
, I don't think Jr is worthy of that title - he has had too many good results. Matsushita was no Andretti, for sure, (and only the family's Panasonic money got him as far as he went) but perhaps it depends on definition of "crappiest". Slowest? Stupidest? For his sheer number of really stupid moves, despite his obvious inherent talent, I would vote Tony Stewart. How many guys could bring so much 'road rage' to racing (intentional punts and hits in races, on pace laps, in the pits, on cool down laps) and still be allowed to retain their racing licence? By my count, he has spent more time in NASCAR under probation than outside of it! He makes the wildest of the BTCC drivers look like boy scouts! I'm surprised he hasn't killed someone yet. For sheer lousy performance, my vote goes to Formula 1's Andrea de Cesaris with 208 starts, no wins, and just 2 second place finishes, along with enough crashed cars to buy a small country - no, make that medium-sized!
 

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QUOTE I think rally car drivers are real drivers. They run under incredibly varied conditions and just keep the throttle open and motor through.

Not to pee in your soup, but a certain group of NASCAR drivers humbled both the top rally and F1 drivers in successive "equal-racing" extreme events, like in a certain go-kart race in Bercy a few years back (Lake Speed) and in a certain island just a couple of years ago...

At this time, it is very unfair to make such characterizations as "rally drivers are better than... or F1 drivers are better than...".
Truth is, the top-level drivers in each top-level racing format are darn good drivers, period. But each formula is so specialized that it is rare when someone from another form of racing will be immediately or at all successful in another. There are such examples but they do not abound. Do these make such drivers superior? Certainly not. More adaptable may be.
Some successful crossovers include John Surtees, Mike Hailwood, Ari Vatanen and others. But it is becoming increasingly difficult as each type of racing becomes more specialized.
As far as suggesting that NASCAR is an easy drive, think again. NO ONE from the Euro style of racing, from ex-F1 to sports cars to GT drivers has ever succeeded in putting even an honorable show. The opposite is not true, even if the incentives to pursue the matter were never enough to take them away from the very lucrative business of driving NASCARmobiles, where most top drivers fly in much bigger private jets than that of MS hisself. And if indeed, the TV audience of F1 on the planet has the highest numbers, the TV audience of NASCAR dwarfs that of F1 if taken in context, I.E. in actual viewers vs broadcasted area.
 

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There is no doubt in my mind that any top driver in the pro classes is a top driver for a reason but I still like watching those rally cars fly around
I don't even like the actual rally cars, I just like how they're driven. Never bothered to look at who makes how much money or how they live and travel, just how they drive.
 

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I think one of the difficulties with NASCAR is that, outside of North America, there is a huge uncertainty as to what it actually IS or represents. In fact there is probably some uncertainty inside North America!

To counter balance P's comments regarding comparisons of drivers: the comments in favour of rally drivers are not at all unfair and make a great deal of sense.
Once we generalise as far as the simple term "Better Driver", by removing any specialisation, then the "More Adaptable" tag necessarily becomes of immense and almost certainly over-riding significance. The ability of great rally drivers to excel on virtually any surface, in any conditions, in any weather must logically outweigh the specialised single class driver who often can't even drive in a few spots of rain. (Even if rally drivers do 'cheat' by carrying a passenger to show them the way round!)


Taking athletics as a reasonable comparison, it' s pretty obvious that a winning multi-discipline athlete would necessarily have to be judged a better athlete than some leggy individual who happens to be blessed with the singular ability to jump over a stick perched on two other sticks!


I also have (ok not HAVE to, but it's in fun!) to query the logic of P's TV viewing figure comments.
If 'viewing success' were to be judged judged purely on the percentage viewing in a limited broadcast area, then any event watched by all 69 local residents of some tiny one-horse hamlet possessing its own 1/2 mile radius TV transmitter, could be considered 'more popular' than an international event watched by maybe 10% of its whole world viewing area that could be counted in hundreds of millions. Something very questionable there, I think!
 

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If one compare the level of driving difficulty between NASCAR, F1 and rally. Then NASCAR is the easiest one&#8230;period.
And that for obvious reasons, as stated so well by Tropi in his post.
 

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Well, even though I don't care for NASCAR I still have to admit that it is a lot more difficult than it looks. They are heavy cars on relatively skinny tires with 700+ HP under the hood. You put a Formula 1 car on tires that skinny, add 1500 pounds dead weight and watch the lap times drop like a rock, if they aren't picking those go karts out of the weeds first
 

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I'm a relative newbie to Nascar and enjoy the races, but I don't enjoy the "culture." The red-clad fans, throwing items and booing drivers not Jr. is typical ******* Americanism.
 

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I had the same experience with fans giving me a bad impression.
Because of the hippie/******* fans getting drunk (or worse) and setting fire to cars & buses I stayed away from F-1 races for years.

I also will not go back to Le Mans because of the drunken "fans".

As for NASCAR at least they try to have the driver/team make the differnce and not the equipment. So I guess that makes NASCAR more of a drivers series than F-1.
 

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Here's the thing, I don't believe you will ever persuade a convincing majority of Europeans that Nascar has any worth - zipping around in circles, hiding from the rain, cars that mean nothing to us and a certain kind of ******* naivety permeatingd all the way through, from the technology to the commentators. Boogerty, boogerty.

Likewise, WRC and F1 will forever be a mystery to a majority of yanks - little buzzy Euro-boxes and hysterical Jap-Crap mobiles with no V8's for the former, and odd little sawn-off Indycars for the latter; hell, they go to Indianapolis and dive off the banking to tour around the infield???.

The only common ground is Le Mans and endurance racing - I've only been twice, never seen a drunken yob but then I spent the full 48 hours glued to the track and never toured the car parks and tent cities.
 

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Gary Skipp
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QUOTE (randybrown @ 21 Nov 2004, 03:50)I'm a relative newbie to Nascar and enjoy the races, but I don't enjoy the "culture."

And I think thats what this thread is about, the dislike of the sensationalising culture. I too love NASCAR racing, but safely from my TV thanks, with the 'mute' button on.

Its a shame the thread became a battle of 'which sport is best' because thats not what it started out as.
 
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