Pro Racing In The Sixties

QUOTE Now, ain't those front wheels a tad inboard on that Shell car? I mean, for an "exact scale" car?

Actually, probably. And again, we at TSRF are not rivet counters. "Exact-scale" is a term against so-called "Scale" as claimed by the US and Euro USRA/BSCRA/IMSA etc... racers with machines far away from any known cars. The TSRF is just looking for a happy medium attainable by all. Compare this to the comments I made a while ago about the squashed FLY Ferrari Daytona and GT40. These are claimed to be absolutely accurate, where are their excuses? I find them beautifully finished. Accurate, no way! So I am just looking for a bit of reason.
Regards,

Mr. Pea

QUOTE "Exact-scale" is a term against so-called "Scale" as claimed by the US and Euro USRA/BSCRA/IMSA etc.

Oh, well that's clear then.

I guess scale, like beauty and blobby, is in the eye of the beholder.

QUOTE Oh, well that's clear then.

I am sorry that it is not clear to you, but in the US and other countries (like IMCA races in Italy or BSCRA in England), "Scale" races have a very different meaning than what you and I wouls normally understand. They race what is basically open-class wing-cars without the added air-control devices seen on such wing cars:
The bodies are vague approximations of real cars, bombarded by names such as "Mercedes" or "Peugeot". Why not Cord or Duesenberg?

The TSRF uses precise shapes generally made from the most accurate Tamiya, Revell or Hasegawa plastic model kits, benefitting from extremely nice molding performed by the all-time best in the buisiness, Lloyd Asbury of Lancer. They are not only accurate but at exact scale. ALL of the wing-car/so-called scale machinery today is TOO SMALL as they have kept the sizing of the chassis the same since the 1960's, while real race cars of today are ENORMOUS compared to the cars then. So the current breed of "1/24" racing cars are more like 1/28 scale...

Is it more clear now of would you like to see some pictures?
Regards,

Mr. Pea

A similar car with molded-in (insted of added-on) air control devices is called "scale" by these people. Some use images of wheel stickers glued on the body as front wheels (IMCA) to meet the rules that "a car must have front wheels", never mind if they are painted on the body.
So the answer is YES.
Now I hope that you understand that between the German or Japanese ultra-scale, rivet-count cars and the American-dictated "scale" racing, the average joe is stuck into staying home in complete despair and condemned to play with somewhat unsatisfactory plastic cars. They become unsatisfactory the minute one drives a Flexi on a wood track, in the same manner as a person convinced into the superiority of his Renault Laguna will never want to drive it again once he has been behind the wheel of a BMW M3 or a Benz C43.

This is why we have created the "happy medium" of the TSRF, because it is easy and runs good, while offering a good aesthetic value.

And this, Wankel, is what model car racing should have stuck to from the beginning.

Recently I got a message on my telephone from a 1960's Car Model Magazine writer named Ben Millspaugh (he had a monthly column there). He was totally enthusiastic about the TSRF concept that he had discovered by accident on the Net and was saying that if I had done this in the late 1960's, things would have been indeed very different from the sorry state it is today.
I could have answered him that I was too dumb then to realise how much damage us, the top pros, were inducing unknowingly.
This is no case, should stop me from enjoying the nostalgia of our old racing days.
Regards,

Mr. Pea

It all seems pretty clear and reasonable to me

Philippe,
that's great that you heard from Ben! Please do an interview with him, get pictures, etc. - he must be a fount of information, memories, etc.! And he did very nice work!

But I respectively beg to differ about 1969. We were all speed crazed maniacs at the time, with more or less attachment to "scale" looking cars (already called semi-scale by the way). It just wasn't in the "air du temps" to take a step back from this, and lower performance for a long-term view.... that comes with hindsight, because we know what happened to the hobby.

There were other options at the time if you really looked for them - but I think that most of us "commercial track" racers just had to keep going towards more performance for a time, until things became ridiculous and most of us stopped for one reason or another.

Personally, I also think this is always going to happen to some extent, because we are RACING cars, not Dinky toys.... Look at all the hop up parts for the Scalextric type cars already. And what really hit me the other day were several "Fray" type hop up arms for Aurora T-jets for chrissakes, going for $70 or so on ebay! This for a vintage class that's supposed to be for "equal", fun, non-magnet racing.

Fraid the race to improve the breed is always going to be around to some extent, and we're going to have to live with that, juggling with the aesthetics/realism aspect to come up with a happy medium.

Would love to try a TSRF one of these days - did it ever turn up in the Post? Or maybe it's still being reconditioned at the Creteil sorting center, like my last package....

Don

QUOTE But I respectively beg to differ about 1969. We were all speed crazed maniacs at the time, with more or less attachment to "scale" looking cars (already called semi-scale by the way).

No we do not differ, I agree!
It's just that now I recognize the damage done then in all innocence.

QUOTE did it ever turn up in the Post? Or maybe it's still being reconditioned at the Creteil sorting center, like my last package....

??? You mean you never received BOTH my packages?

Mr. Pea

I had a long telephone conversation with Ben when he contacted me. We discussed a specific points including the one you raised about the ignorance of the media to pinpoint other "hot" spots of racing in the country. Problem is, we had to agree with the following:

1/ Everyone HAD an opportunity to go to Memphis for the first true national professional race in the USA and team members from Champion, Mura, Russkit, Riggen, Steube, Kean, Nutley, Buzzarama, Dyna-Rewind... confronted private entries from all over the country. Some drove thousands of miles in horrible piles of metal barely hanging together to do so. About 400 of them did. And at the end of the day, the team of Mike Steube and John Cukras flatened them all with this simple but effective car:



On top of crushing the opposition, they won Concours, showing that the standards were not so hot then...



2/ The ONLY time that the traveling Team Russkit members were seriously challenged in their 1966 and 1967 country tours is when they raced against "thingies" like in Chicago against the Dyan-Rewind boys and their Shinoda thingies. Even then they were only beaten by a couple of fellows, not by an entire gang. Their Russkit Lotus 40's with jailhouse frames and rewound 16D's were a bit slower with their larger wheels and semi-scale appearance. Now they went to a total of over 260 raceways all over the nation, and dominated the racing virtually anywhere. Len Vucci however told me that in some cases they let the locals win just so as not to frustrate them too much because they had been told by Jim Russell to do so.

3/ As what happened to me when I became a factor and got LOTS of ink in the magazines, it was a question of success. While others talked, we did. When confronted with any claimers of betterness (an boy, did I get a lot of that...), we humbled them on the track.

4/ When gentle Bob Emott went to England in 1970 to face the cream of British pro-racers who were going to show the Yank how it's done, Bob inflicted them the most humiliating defeat in possibly the whole history of pro-racing and humbled them for years to come.

Rocky, what else can I say?
Regards,

Philippe

I adore those 1/24th Pro F1 cars from the mid to late 1960s!

Here's a pictorial evolution of 1/32nd scale F1 chassis designs:-

This 1968 Ferrari was typical of the period until around 1969, using FT16/16D size motors (in this case a Rikoflash Mk2) and 1/16 inch brass rod chassis:-




Images courtesy of John Secchi and Scratchbuilt.com.

1972 Lola F5000, pretty much state-of-the-art from the early to mid 1970s. Bear in mind that ECRA had a 1 1/4" maximum width chassis rule:-




Images courtesy of John Secchi and Scratchbuilt.com.

Typical mid 1980s brass plate and wire design. 13UO motors with polymer cobalt magnets and cut down Mura endbell:-




Images courtesy of John Secchi and Scratchbuilt.com.

Mid to late 1980s. "Flexi-iso" brass plate and wire F1 chassis:


Images courtesy of John Secchi and Scratchbuilt.com.

Late 1990s and onwards. Laser or EDM cut spring-steel, "strap" motors.....

Kind regards

Russell

Great stuff Russell!
At least and even if they are way off actual scale, these bodies had a bit more character than the awful junk that ensued...

Hi

Huh? Not sure I got the point here. All I said was that there were Denver racers who insisted they were as good as anyone. One of them, as a kid could NOT travel, but in the 80s was a national champion. His wife was Pissed that he carried this to an extreme that, once he was settled, he had to take a year off.

Was morresey the best in 66? Dunno. I was a minor at the time and he never ran anywhere I could get to. In 65, I qualified to represent my are in the 1/32 nats put on by strombecker...in Vegas. My parents had a kitten! Sheesh. But I will be first to say that I did not BELONG in a nationals. I won my region with a better car, where I was in the empty west, people built bad cars, I was building Dobson style plate cars. Very different.
The only "Team Russkit" guy I have raced with was Danny Wilson, who, also a kid, did not travel with the team. He is an ASTOUNDING racer. But never made the press. I have never asked him how he ran in that group.

As for later:We have had this discussion many times. I am of the humble opinion that John Cukrus is the best I have seen, no excuses. Simply for this reason. Racers have good days and bad days. The thing that mostly impressed me about Cukrus is that he always drives the car he has, not the car he wants it to be. You have to be a builder to understand that one.
I also assert that every track I saw had SOMEONE who could run at the national level if he had the money or whatever. Not Cukrus, but national. Slot racing is EASY!

I would try some of Millspaugh's designs. But was never happy with his approach. But interesting. The only car of his design that I raced with some success was his "bounty hunter" design. For the wrong reason. Simply, it was considered a modified dynamic, and, therefore legal in "stock racing", allowing me to poach on the kids running a 12buck RTR. After my AMTs, this was my "RTR" for 68! There would be 40 kids(ok I was a kid) paying $2 each to enter, with half going to first place. Weekley. $40 bucks represented a the pay of a full time job at the time. So, for me, Saturday was a better payday than an actual job. Put me through school!

Fate

QUOTE All I said was that there were Denver racers who insisted they were as good as anyone.

And the point I made is that the Brits also claimed to be until Emott CREAMED them. Denver racers had the same priviledges as anyone and did not have less travel money than anyone. I hope that you get the point... I mean Gilbert and I drove a N600 Honda from L.A. to N.Y. in 53 hours, only 10 more than it took Gurney and Yates in the Ferrari Daytona in the Cannonball Run... Sleeping was accomplished in the non-reclining passenger seat and whoever was driving (mostly yours truly) was on Nodoz. Between Gilbert and I we did not have more than a hundred bucks and came home only because we won both races in N.Y.
What's the Denver racers excuse?

QUOTE Was Morrissey the best in 66?

Morrissey could not drive. He built a decent car but the others in the Russkit team were the drivers. So no, he was not the best, not even the best builder. From the chassis and cars I have, the very best was Pete Von Ahrens. His stuff looked absolutely flawless. Mine was cheap thrash compared to Pete's. And there were others who were great builders, like Henline and Schmid. Mike Steube was good at one time but drugs really got to him.
Regards,

Philippe

QUOTE Morrissey could not drive. He built a decent car but the others in the Russkit team were the drivers.

Mr Pea,
you really are an infinite source of amazing facts & tidbits
on slot racing, past & present. Thanks for sharing!

Also thanks for great info on past "Slot heroes"
further up this thread. Those were from top of
my head, I've pondered a little and come up with
some more old names.
Where are they now? if you would be so kind:

Bob Cozine, whiz-kid of Champion of Chamblee.
Bob Kovacs, body painter.
Bob Rule, aka Mr Yo-Yo.
Phil Inglis.
Jan Limpach.
Lee Gilbert.

Chapman posted:

"Where are they now? if you would be so kind:

Bob Cozine, whiz-kid of Champion of Chamblee.
Bob Kovacs, body painter.
Bob Rule, aka Mr Yo-Yo.
Phil Inglis.
Jan Limpach.
Lee Gilbert."

Since Philippe won't be awake for a couple more hours, I hope he won't mind if I respond in his stead, at least for those names I can speak to.

Bob Cozine and his significant other have run a very respected high-end stained glass studio here in Atlanta for many years. Bob occasionally still races with us local folks using borrowed cars (I get a genuine thrill when he races one of mine), but I think he would be the first to tell you that time has eroded his once-formidable driving skills. I've heard him remark that he can't feel the cars when driving as he once could. In the early '80s, when he was racing locally on a regular basis, he was extremely hard to beat. (As an aside, one of the former Champion employees tells the story of asking Bob to drive his ill-handling car, after Bob had again stomped him in a race. Bob said, "Let's swap cars," and proceeded to run rings around the ex-Champ employee anyway!)

When he's not racing you, Bob is the nicest guy in slot racing, but when he's got a controller in his hand he's one mean and nasty guy and a truly fierce competitor. But immediately after the power clicks off, he's back to his normal sweet self. All his friends laugh about this. Bob's one of my favorite folks in all of slot racing.

Bob Rule is basically retired. You probably know that he started Bo-Link RC Products after his slot racing endeavors, but passed the reins to son Steve several years ago. (I heard just yesterday that Bo-Link shut their doors recently). I believe Bob still lives in Lawrenceville, GA, an Atlanta suburb.

Lee Gilbert has been selling motors and chassis (as well as some the best tires available anywhere) under his Speedshop brand for a number of years. He has also sold an evolving series of spring steel 1/24 Eurosport chassis that are brilliantly designed and beautifully crafted, as well as being blindingly fast. He recently open another raceway in Washington state, where he lives.

Like myself, Lee's near vision has deteriorated with age and he's now almost never seen without his trademark Opti-Visor atop his head. He's still a pretty grumpy and opinionated guy (Hi, Lee!), and a hell of a craftsman, one of the very best.

Lee's Speedshop website can be seen at http://home.earthlink.net/~speedshop/.

I haven't seen Jan Limpach in over ten years and don't think he is involved in slots any more, but I could be wrong about this. His Limpach "Fresh Cuts" tires disappeared a number of years ago, I think. I do know he is now professionally involved in computers and the internet. One recent reference speaks of "Jan Limpach, principal of keyphrase-marketing.com, Elyria, Ohio."

Very, Very COOL!! We see all the new goodies in the hobby shop, but it's good to know the history. Some of the details point out why each chasis was different/unique and truly engineered. It amazes me that folk are still producing new chasis designs...you would think they were all used up.

Anyhow it will be great to see the hobby continue and new blood get injected to the extent that it takes it further. There is likely room for all forms of slot racing/scales/cars. I imagine the changes to a more scale appearance has served to bring others into the hobby would lose interest in the performance-mainly/only camp. (Love those guys too!!)

Thanks for the history lesson. I hope to leave some mark on the hobby for the good as well. (I'm an inventor, you know...Aren't we all

Maltese