[Nico]

....is an anti-collision system for digital races simillar to driving with magnets??????

When driving with magnets your car does not drift a lot, so kicking your oponent off his track is rather hard.

An anti-collision system for digital races would do the same (at crossovers).

I know the question is a little satanic, but what is your opinion...?????

Nico

24h GT Salzburg

 

[peter]

I think that the question and idea is much better and interesting than the first impression it might give initially.

If there would be a 'anti-crash' technology built in the digital systems, this does not obviously mean that the driving would require less skill. In fact the driving skills required might be just as great as any other racing (includes any preferences magnet / non-mag racing). The interesting thing is that the focus for the driver would be on driving style, driving strategy etc, this means driving well. To drive into cars on a real race track is not always supported by existing race regulations and drivers do sometimes get punished for 'ruthless' driving etc. So I would say that there ARE regulations on real tracks and I see no reason why there could not be certain regulations implemented in digital racing - but to make it possible for racers to concentrate on racing instead of 'regulations' and different (impossible?) manual implementation of those 'regulations' some of these issues could be taken care of by the digital (anticrash?) system. Ofcourse some crashes will occur anyway - but it might ease some of the more straighforward mistakes due to short distances and overscale speeds. It might make the digital racing even more fun than the current non-digital one.

//peter

 

[Difflock]

IMHO any kind of anti collision device will take the skill away from racing. All you have to do is leave the throttle wide open and the anti collision device will drive the car for you - not good.

I thought motor racing was a non-contact sport?!!

Yeah verily, forsooth and verily what witchcraft be this, wherest the little cars taketh it upon themselves to changest lanes, so as to "get one over" on thine opponents? Verily (that be thrice verily!) this di-gital is a tool of the devil, it hast the mark of Old Nick's sweaty armpit upon it!

T'will be the sworn duty of Baron Difflock de' Capri, Switchfinder General to the Slotting world to hunt down this di-gital....and give it a good looking at! That he may no longer sit upon the fence of decision, which is a mite uncomfortable

Apologies for the last two paragraphs Nico! As English isn't your native language, it may be hard to understand, but it's just a little Olde Worlde humour

Mark.

 

[peter]

QUOTE (Difflock @ 12 Apr 2004, 15:38)IMHO any kind of anti collision device will take the skill away from racing. All you have to do is leave the throttle wide open and the anti collision device will drive the car for you - not good.

I thought that 'anti collision' device would not be 'driving' the car - just 'braking' in those particular occasions when you would for certain run into a car infront of yours? e.g. If you leave the throttle wide open you would still deslot for example? Also not all collisions would be anticipated, e.g. driving into deslotted vehicles etc...

ofcourse If you meant 'anti-collision' to include 'anti-deslotting' the whole driving 'experience' would be slightly different from the one I envisioned.

This idea of yours would open up a whole new hobby for me (e.g. hacking into the digital system - the one with the best hacker skills wins).

//peter

 

[Difflock]

It's a good one this isn't it? I was envisaging the anti-collision device to be some kind of proximity sensor (don't ask me how!

) which would eliminate the need for braking to avoid stuff.

You are of course right, Peter in that a wide open throttle will cause a de-slot on a curve, it was just me implying that digital racing could be a no-brainer depending on the route it takes (sorry about the pun!)

Mark.

 

[Nico]

Thanks gentleman for the really great replys.

Now again from my experience on racing with a DAVIC system in a 24h event:
-there was(is and will be) a rule that if you are a faster car and you are in the same lane as a slower car (which is infront of you) it is the duty of the driver of the faster car to see how he overtakes the slower car; the slower car may stay in his lane.
-second importaint rule: if you crash into a slower car infront of you and deslot him (for example infront of a corner or in a corner; just like in real racing!!), you get a stop and go penalty in a dedicated stop and go area (outside lane opposite of the pit lane).

What do you think of that?? I can tell you from experience that those rules mean a lot during a 24h race.

And back to one of the threads above; YES digital racing means a lot more concentration on the race itself and a lot more tactics than in a "normal " race.

Nico

24h GT Salzburg

 

[elicend]

hi

i've got some DAVIC experience but never more than 3h race...

QUOTE there was(is and will be) a rule that if you are a faster car and you are in the same lane as a slower car (which is infront of you) it is the duty of the driver of the faster car to see how he overtakes the slower car; the slower car may stay in his lane.
-second importaint rule: if you crash into a slower car infront of you and deslot him (for example infront of a corner or in a corner; just like in real racing!!), you get a stop and go penalty in a dedicated stop and go area (outside lane opposite of the pit lane).

i don't think you need more exept when driver are nervous... some stop & go are rejected and this is not possible, i thing a leader marshall should be find and it will be him who will have the next word (dernier mot... i don't know the english word

)

the stop and go is a very bad thing in a race and you'll think twice time before putting out of the track another driver

and it's normal that a slower car whitch is running with you keeps its line! it's the race to overtake it!! is you clear the track before a faster, there will be less interest!

well after, why not looking for pitstops why fuel

elicend.

 

[LMP]

Anti-collision in f1 to reflect the real boredom of the sport.

No holds bared for touring cars though - just like the 80s/90s!

 

[Tropi]

QUOTE it will be him who will have the next word (dernier mot)
Le dernier mot = the last word = the final decision.

QUOTE No holds bared for touring cars though
First time that driving naked has been proposed!

 

[Fergy]

QUOTE And back to one of the threads above; YES digital racing means a lot more concentration on the race itself and a lot more tactics than in a "normal " race.

Yes, this is what digital racing is all about!

IMO, systems which prevent collisions (from behind or at lane change sections) would remove a large part of digital racing's entire purpose. It seems silly to me to add the complexity of MCPL to slot racing and then seek to have the drivers' responsibilities minimized.

I'm not sure I'd compare anti-collision to magnets though. Anti-collision reduces the talent needed by a driver. Magnets, on the other hand, alter the type of skill required when racing - true, they may make it easier to circulate on a home set, but in competition you still need to be a good driver. Magnets do not equate to less talent in racing, just different talents.

 

[Fergy]

QUOTE First time that driving naked has been proposed!

Thanks, Tropi! I'd almost forgotten the New Year's Eve party we had back in '75!

 

[Maltese]

Well-said, Fergy. I would imagine if a person enters a MCPL race they want the full experience and set of responsibilities of the experience. That includes not ramming slower cars (perhaps other classes) in a particular lane.

The slower car would not intentionally block the faster car, but the faster car should be looking to overtake and keep going.

I would not want a machine telling me when I can change lanes or how close I can get on the tale of another driver as long as I do not brake the rules and deslot the lad (or lasse).

Maltese

 

[McLaren]

Two words: Blue Flag.

Slower cars should move out of the way of lapping drivers. It's the way in every FIA race ever run. Why should the faster driver have to overtake? He is being punished for being the faster driver. Slow cars should get out of the way and if they hold up the leaders then they should be punished like in real racing. Similarly, if two cars are racing head to head for 20 laps in a row and finally one pushes the other out of the slot, that driver should not be punished as it is a racing incident (unless he blatently does it on purpose, obviously). However, drivers who immediatly take out an opponant should be penalised with a drive-thru (penalty, not the food) as they do in real racing. The driver has 5 laps in which to take his drive-thru penalty after the descision has been made by an independant adjudicator. I think switching to a lane which has 5 volts maximum is a good idea, this will simulate the slow pit lane speed. The driver can switch back out of this lane after 5-10 metres, say.

And also, proximity managed anti-collision things will mean, you get behind the fastest driver on the track and floor it. You will follow him round the track at a carbon copy of his speed, just 5 inches behind him. Therefore, you match his lap time even if you are a carpy driver. This way, the slowest driver will only be a lap down on the fastest driver at the end of a race, whatever it's length. I think that would be rubbish. I agree, the faster driver could change lanes to 'shake off' his followers, but what if he doesn't want to? Or what if the following driver just changes lane after him? The only solution is that the faster driver comes out, and then the slower driver is in front. Then, they'd just slow down and let themselves be overtaken again. IMHO, anti-collision is a silly idea as it takes away all of the realism that digital is meant to introduce.

Sorry for the novel...

Lotus

PS. I know some slower drivers that would try and block me if I overtook them. It happens even when there is a lane's difference between us...

 

[Nico]

>Slower cars should move out of the way of lapping drivers. It's the way in every FIA race ever run. Why should the faster driver have to overtake? He is being punished for being the faster driver. Slow cars should get out of the way and if they hold up the leaders then they should be punished like in real racing. Similarly, if two cars are racing head to head for 20 laps in a row and finally one pushes the other out of the slot, that driver should not be punished as it is a racing incident (unless he blatently does it on purpose, obviously). However, drivers who immediatly take out an opponant should be penalised with a drive-thru (penalty, not the food) as they do in real racing. The driver has 5 laps in which to take his drive-thru penalty after the descision has been made by an independant adjudicator. I think switching to a lane which has 5 volts maximum is a good idea, this will simulate the slow pit lane speed. The driver can switch back out of this lane after 5-10 metres, say.>

Nice idea, but one thing: KEEP IT SIMPLE!!!!!!

That is my point of view.

If you have a faster car or you are the faster driver, you have either the experience or the skill! So it should be no problem to overtake a slower car!! And I think that is what the digital systems are about!!!

I would rather call a collision on a lanechange a race accident than de-slotting another slotcar that is infront of me.
It is like in LeMans, where more than one class of cars compete. If someone is slower and stays in your way, just kick him out, so you can race at your speed again????!!! This IS NOT my idea of digital racing!!!!!!!!!!!

From my experience at racing for 24h, it is not that hard and the FEAR of deslotting while changing lanes - hey guys you also do not overtake a beginner on a slottrack in an outside corner, do you?????!!!!!!!
I think that fear is a lot bigger than the actual accidents are on the track!!!!

An the stop and go penalty is really a hard one as you have to change from the perfect lane (one in the middle I guess) to an outside lane to perform the penalty in a dedicated area!!

Experience of a digital system is the missing thing here!!!

Nico

24h GT Salzburg

 

[Tropi]

The only thing that is certain is that lane changing is going to cause more disagreements over

1. What the rule are.
2. Interpretation of the rules, in actual racing situations.
3. Assigning fault or blame, FAIRLY, when 'rules are broken'.
4. Agreeing appropriate punishment for 'rule breaking'
5. Maybe more.

None of which will be of the least use in home-racing and all of which has the potential to create much bad feeling and bad temper in organised racing. Every layer of additional complexity carries the unavoidable potential to trigger arguments among people who are already quite well-endowed with testosterone and/or the competitive spirit.
I KNOW - I am one!

The serious underlying point here is that assigning 'blame' FAIRLY for an incident at racing speed is usually impossible - although there is an abundance of people (usually everyone present!) who always 'know' that they are always 'right'! This leads to interesting and often heated discussion, which is where forums excel, but which tends to remove much of the fun from actual racing.

 

[Nico]

Tropi, basically I agree, but that´s what rules are for.

You DO need a non-driving judge (race organization) that tells the penaltys to the driver/team, e.g. stop and go penalty.
If you agree or not is not the topic here. You have a fine to fullfill. If you refuse to you will get more fines and so on. If you do this during an endurance race (e.g.24h) your team will thank you a lot if you keep crashing into cars infront of you.
PLUS it keeps you well away from slower cars after a while and you will learn VERY FAST to overtake those slower cars infront of you as those stop and go penaltys really cost time (laps).

Simple. if there is someone who judges there is simply NO arguing. You are there to race after rules that were published before. if you don´t like the rules, simply do not race there!!
As I keep organizing races this has become my strict, but clear point of view.

No need to arguee during a race if there are clear rules, this stands for digital and "normal" races!!!
And hey, it is still a hobby and should be fun and as far as I know we are not racing for thousands of dollars (euros) worth of price money yet!!! And we are not pros yet that need this money to make a living!!!

Nico

Grenzlandslot

 

[Tropi]

Nico, you are of course completely correct in all that you say!
I really do agree with you.

I simply point out that there are still difficulties which will probably prevent it from ever becoming a mass- market product.
QUOTE if you don´t like the rules, simply do not race there!!
Completely correct, but it is still a big problem if we cannot get enough people in agreement with each other.

Again, for those who don't know me well, I am personally fascinated by digital and lane changes but we have to face the hard facts as well as the attractions! I try to be a realist - most of the time anyway!

 

[LMP]

additionally, I don't want to pay over the usual amount for a car that drives itself for me.

(in relation to anti-collision mechanisms)

 

[Maltese]

Good points, Lotus, all.

I think the "Keep it simple" approach is the way to go in most cases. You will always have a more hardcore bunch that are more than happy to abide more strict rules.

If I were a slower driver I would want/try to get out of the way of a rocket, realizing that hey may just overtake me. If he's not going around me then I may try to move out of the way if the place is right.

The R/C guys cut eachother off all the time. They even flip a car/truck every now and again that the marshalls put upright. I don't see them leaving their hobby. We are getting closer to more realistic racing which has its high and low points (if you just like the simplicity of going in circles).

In either case slotters should have the choice of running either traditional or digital/LC and not be forced. The slot cars themselves should allow you to run either way...without excluding customers or driving the prices through the roof.

-Maltese

 

[McLaren]

Good point Maltese, bring RC into this!

I race RC every week. I started about 6-12 months ago, so I'm not that good yet. I'm in the middle of group 2 at the moment (of 4, 4 being the best). This means I'm faster than some drivers in my group, but slower than others. When someone comes to lap me, I keep the throttle down, but move aside about a foot. That way I let them though on the racing line and I loose less than a tenth in time... Similarly, if I come to overtake someone, they'll get out of my way. If they don't I'll nudge them, and if that doesn't work then I'll budge them... (then I'll blow their house down). This is the way to go. If you spend four minutes clawing a lap on someone, you aren't just gonna be able to pop by them. Especially if you can't have the racing line. Therefore you are stuck behind them until the end of the race... yeah, that seems fair...

I'm fed up (rant alert!) of everyone sticking up for the slow guys. No one gives a damn about Minardis, why should they care about slow slot racers? The compotition is to find the fastest. Faster drivers should therefore be awarded. This can be done by letting them through (a gentlemans way of racing). The should not be punished by having to go off line to overtake backmarkers. I agree that when racing for position, you must go around the driver in front, because he has every right to block his position, but not when they are a lap down. Let me ask you, how many times have you been racing and you have come up to lap 'Mr Trigger Happy Exhuberant Youth' who thinks he can stay with you for a lap, and takes you off, because clearly, he can't. I think that is downright out of order, and that kind of behaviour should be punished. If a Minardi ever tried to unlap himself on the a red car and it took him off, sure it would be praised by the whole population (except the Germans...) but it would be wrong, and he should be punished.

So I implore you (ooh, look at the fancy words...) reward your fast drivers, don't punish them... or there won't be any point in being fast...

Right, rant over, go on tell me why I'm wrong...

lotus

PS. Keep it simple: if you knock off a driver who is about to lap you, you are penalised. If you knock off a driver when vying (?) for position, then all's fair.