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René 'Vialli' Christensen
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I was just wondering if you are able to use the digital system if you use converters for the classic tracks?
I don't want to get rid off my classic tracks for those slippery Sport tracks, but I would love to go digital on my classic tracks with Sport power for the braking!



In my own 'umble opionen I do think it is possible, but maybe I've overseen something here!

 

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Classic power rail connections are not as reliable and positive as SPORT power rail connections which employ a solid bullet.

This is the crux of the issue. Reliable power continuity is desirable with digital. You may find that your Classic track being the age that it may be does not offer a suitably positive environment for digital. It should be nothing that a soldering iron and solder can resolve on a permanent layout however.

Challenger works on Classic track and that employs a chip so the precedent is there.


Moped
 

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challenger proves nothing because it does not use the track for digital signals, its chip is used in a completely different way.

However the points about the track connection is a good one, at least on a theoretical level

6/10
 

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I have found that Classic track has much better continuity than Sport, which moves between the joins too much.
 

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Disagree on the Challenger point.

Ask yourself why you plug a key into the power supply control plug to keep the power level constant in the lane that Challenger is running in.

If the power is uneven around the circuit then Challenger will not function properly.


Moped
 

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whats that I smell?
chicken? horse? sheep? no no yes thats it.... bullshit!

the "key" simply provides full power to track

challenger actually works best on our club track
 

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Yes the key gives the lane full power.

But Scalextric also recomend that the power has to be at constant levels around the circuit. The car has a chip. It has a digital memory.

If the power is not even Challenger performance is uneven.

I cannot see what folk are failing to understand here.

But of course this is a deliberate wind up yet again by the usual suspects.


Moped
 

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There is one person failing to understand and putting erroneous information all over the forum, and that is you moped. You did it with fixed IDs, and then 'changed your mind' whilst leaving the forum littered with your misinformation and you are doing it again here.

For the benefit of those now confused by Mopeds assertions, and it saddens me that this information may be of use to you as well Moped, I will explain. I know that even if you do understand, you will be ungrateful and claim to have thought the new opinion all along, but probably have got it a bit wrong and continue spreading confusion.

There is ONE reason why digital (eg SSD) needs a particularly good conductivity and signal path, and that is because the signal is used to carry a coded signal - from the control station to the car. This is a hi-ish frequency signal, and any errors (dead bits of track, the guide bouncing off the rail for a second) will mean that the car's chip will not understand what the controller is trying to say to it.

It is this REAL TIME communication between the car's chip and the controller's chip that means that the signal must be good.

It is the fact that the rails are now used to transmit INFORMATION that this is important.

The Challenger does not use digital information on the rails, it uses full power. This is FUNDAMENTALLY different from how SSD and MCPL works, the challenger uses the control tower (via infra red) to tell it to start or learn, but ALL the 'thinking' is done within the car and within the chip. There is no external communication with anything. Any variance in the power supplied to the challenger will have the same effect as applied to an analogue car. (Alos note that on scalextric's recent digital explanation, they state that the challenger is NOT compatible with SSD)

This is new technology, so no-one can be faulted for not grasping this already. However, Moped can be faulted for spouting off as if he knows something when he hasnt even grasped the BASICS of the issue.
 

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Astro makes good points.
Information and DISinformation, rather witty and also accurate with regard to the former in the track and the latter not only being off track but also taking other people off track, often deliberately.
 

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Another question arising from Astro's explanation.

Could older rail material adversely attenuate the high-freq signal? I mean a larger track, using older Classic or similar, that works fine with analog might experience problems with the digital signal? I know older electric guitars use a simple variable cap to attenuate high frequencies and reading this thread begged the question of whether older, oxidised rails might do the same to the control signal?

If so, would power taps solve that or create a different problem of signal duplication and timing?
 

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power taps and soldering joints should help, any delays in different lengths of wire should be insignificant.

The digital signals are (probably - no one has had an SSD system to dissect yet!) sent via square waves of positive or negative current, in pulses of varying duration based on a given frequency. This is a little different from analogue high frequencies, so filtering effects on guitars don't really apply.

The solid metal of the rails will be essentially the same whether they are 50 year old classic or brand new sport track, but corrossion on the surface will have an effect. I would suspect rust and oxidisation would cause intermittent contact with the braids - which is perhaps the worst sort of interference for messing up the signal.

A messed up signal isn't the end of the world - and can have different effects to poor conductivity in analogue. If a message is corrupted and the car cannot understand it, it carries on doing what it was doing and waits for the next message which is addressed to it. When messages are missed, you will experience greater 'latency' - ie there will be more of a delay between you adjusting the control and the car responding. (in extreme cases the car wont get enough electricity, and you will see the car going slow as in analogue/challenger set-ups, but this is a different effect than the specifically digital one)

But there are people on the board with a lot more expertise on these matters than me, so hopefully they might elaborate on the tested or likely effects of rusty rails.
 

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QUOTE (astro @ 20 Aug 2004, 01:46)...The digital signals are (probably - no one has had an SSD system to dissect yet!) sent via square waves of positive or negative current, in pulses of varying duration based on a given frequency...
Astro, do you think that SSD will work this way? IF so, power supply must be around 36 volts (+ / - 18 volts), because is not practical to invert voltage into the console.

Don't know, I see much easier a constant voltage (DC) for the track. Square wave would be useful to control analog cars on digital track, say a safety car or so.
 

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Hey guys,

One just asked that is he able to use classic track with SSD. The answer is yes and it is not depended of the way how SSD works since both tracks has conductive rails. I'm not sure if you're arguing about it but i think that this issue is quite straight forward.

It is true that engineers in generics (the company who is developing SSD http://www.generics.co.uk/ ) has lots of problems to solve but i believe that they have enough knowledge to do it. Let's just be happy that we are getting that system in future


Best regards:

Sami
 

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Good info from Astro tho, underpinning knowledge shared by someone who knows what he`s talking about. That`s fine by me and a change from some of the undiluted waffle we sometimes get. Cheers Astro
 

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Why could not Astro have said all this in the first place?

My point was that Challenger does require a good and consistent electrical supply to funtion properly. I simply stated that if a circuit is good enough for Challenger then it should be good enough for a digital signal. You never heard me say that Challenger was compatible with Digital.

Intergrale made the point that Challenger works best on the Wrexham Club circuit. That is probably becuase time and effort has been put in to making sure that appropriate power taps are in place and that power is even around the full length of the Wrexham circuit.

There should be absolutely no problem at all if Intergrale wishes to switch to a digital set up at Wrexham. In fact it could all be done very cost effectively. Intergrale could very quickly intergrate the SPORT Digital bits and pieces into the outside lanes of Wrexham and be running 6 cars in those 2 lanes. In fact you could have SPORT Digital evenings every so often as an alternative to analogue evenings.


Moped
 

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QUOTE Astro, do you think that SSD will work this way? IF so, power supply must be around 36 volts (+ / - 18 volts), because is not practical to invert voltage into the console

I hope some of the real digital experts (thinking lordjw and rc45 and others) might bring their knowledge to bear here, but as Midas points out, this discussion has ended up a bit out of the way!

Basically, when transmitting signals of any kind, its a good idea to have great connections, and great cables or medium for the signal to go down. Stuff like gold connectors, multi-strand copper sheilded cable and so on are nice if the signal is electric.

With slot racing, we have chunky steal rails, with moving braids lightly resting on them, and bouncing over the track joints, and distances of many metres. These are adverse conditions for what is being done, and easy for mistakes to happen. The method of sending the signal must be very robust, so the system described above which is also used for train digital DCC systems, seems very likely.
 
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