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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I am desperately searching for colour scheme and livery of the Stirling Moss Ltd. Maserati 250F #40 driven by John Fitch at the Italian Grand Prix at Monza September 11 1955 finishing 9 four laps down on the winner.

After the somewhat colourfull livery at Aintree (driven by Lance Macklin) I believed the Moss Maserati to be back in BRG at Monza. But now I have stumbled over "Autosport 1/6" from September 16 1955 covering the Italian race, and I quote page 336: ".... dropped further and further behind Fitch´s light grey and black Maserati."

Anybody out there who can help with a photo or a drawing of that livery?

/Holger
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Geoff - thanks a lot, but as you said - Monaco doesn´t help a lot concerning Monza....
 

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Maybe I am close to settle this case. Research tells me, that Stirling Moss drove his own Maserati 250F at the Daily Telegraph Trophy race on Aintree September 3 1955. During this race the 250F appeared in overall battleship grey with a Union Jack flag design on the nose and a black #7.

The Monza Grand Prix was only 8 days later. Could the "light grey and black" Maserati, which the journalist is refering to in "Autosport", in fact be the same livery as on Aintree - grey being the car and black being the race numbers (and tyres)?

And, as stated, the two races were only separated by 8 days, so how much time was there for a repaint anyway!

/Holger
 

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Kitbasher
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Not the right race but I reckon it is the right colour scheme, this is the Stirling Moss owned 250F. Interesting that it appears to use 'Dunlop' knock off wheels rather than spoked wheels...

 

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Tony Condon
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Hi Holger
The car in petes picture is ,as you probably already know is the macklin car at the 1955 british gp ,you asked me for a colour picture ,and now pete has supplied one
THe white on the body work was possibly only on for the british gp as I have never seen it on any other race versions of this car

Cheers tony

PS will start work on the vanwall next week
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Tifosi (Pete?) - thanks, as Tony says above this is Lance Macklin at Aintree at the British GP 1955. At the Italian GP in the autum same year the car was overall grey despite the Union Jack nose. I have a photo of the car taken 8 days prior to the Monza race clearly showing the car being overall grey. But great pic anyway since I am also trying to build the Macklin driven car. A win-win situation.

Tony - yes, you are quite right. Great to have a colour photo at last. Ever greater news concerning your 1955 Vanwalls.

Holger
 

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Kitbasher
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QUOTE Not the right race but I reckon it is the right colour scheme, this is the Stirling Moss owned 250F
Yes, I left you the caption when I scanned the photograph so that their would be no confusion that this is indeed the wrong grand prix/driver but at least the 'union jack' on the nose now makes more sense.
I believe that the white diamonds were omitted for the following race...
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
I fully agree - case solved and closed! Thank you out there.

/Holger

NB! Guys, this is what our www.slotforum.com is all about. Great!
 

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Sorry for the late comment, but I've been busy! I hope you will allow me to reopen a "solved and closed" case! All of the above pictures are correct, right car, right drivers for those races, but wrong color for Fitch in the '55 Italian GP. In James Grinnell's "John Fitch, Racing through Life", it is stated on p. 80: "They even painted Moss's car blue and white in deference to the American driver." This is a little misleading: The car was white with a blue stripe. There is a picture of the car in Arron and Huges' "The Complete Book of Formula One" in the chapter on 1955. The car, as I have said, was white; the blue strip goes from nose to tail. It seems to stop at the windscreen surround; then, of course, continues on the tail. The blue is curved on the edges in the front (on the nose), as though there was a roundel (I assume there was no roundel, since the car is white, but you get the idea.) The number 40 is straight on the nose: the number is on the tail on the right side, and I assume on the left also. This is the only picture I have seen of Fitch's car (or Fitch driving Moss's car if you prefer) in the '55 Italian GP. One more thing, the width of the stripe is about the same as on the Centro-Sud 250f driven by Masten Gregory at Rheims in 1957, pictured on p.83 in David Mckinney's excellent book "Maserati 250F". Different body style, of course, but the layout is similar... not the numbers though. Hope this helps. I look forward to seeing photos of your model.
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
Limerockist - you are more than welcome to open a settled case. The more I lerarn, the better my model will be!

I really appriciate all your input, but the funny part is, that yesterday I lay hand on the magazine "Motor Sport, Vol. XXXI No. 10" from October 1955. On page 611 there is a photo from Monza of the #40 Moss car with Fitch at the wheel. The first ever photo I have seen of this car in that race.

The B/W photo clearly shows

- the Union Jack nose
- #40 in black in a white circle/roundel (on the nose, the tail is still no mans land). And the white roundel clearly shows the car was NOT white. (I stay with grey).
- a black shadow which COULD indicate a central blue stripe. But it is surely NOT curved on the edges in the front

Unfortunately I am still not wise enough to figur out how to scan photos for this media, but if you send me a PM with your e-mail address, I will send it to you and maybe you can put it out here in this forum for further discussion?

I would be very happy to see the photo you are refering to.

Hope to learn more.

Holger
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
NB! I quote the same magazine as mentioned above. Page 598: "The only private owners (of Maser 250Fs) were Gould and Fitch, the former driving a borrowed factory car and the latter driving the grey Moss Maserati".

I rest my case....

Holger
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
Stubbo - fine link and a fine photo. And the #40 250F in the middle is right as Limerockist desribes it. Only bommer is, that it clearly shows a 1956-57 version of the 250F, so this can not be the #40 from Monza 1955.

And John Fitch never drove a 250F in an official WC Grand Prix in neither 1956 nor 1957!

Holger
 

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Well, this is becoming more and more interesting.
Where to start.

The picture in Stubbo's post is a '55-56 Maserati... the body shape is the same. However, Moss's car has '54 bodywork, which has louvres... but the nose is wrong... it did not have a blue surround at the front. (At least I don't think it had....) Other than that, it seems correct... As an aside, I am thinking about doing the car using a Strombecker body, which is the '56 car with no louvres... I have seen an ad in a model railway magazine that a company is producing decals of louvres for use on locomotives... if they are, and the decals are any good, I may be able to back date some 250fs. That's all I know about them. The other alternative is, of course, a resin '54 shell.

Now, I have taken a closer look at the picture I have, and I am glad I did, because I have noticed details which I didn't see before. (I actually think we may well be looking at the same picture.) The nose appears to still have the red, white, and blue surround that it had earlier... but the stripe comes from that straight up the bonnet. There may or may not be a roundel... but the stripe has a curve at the top and bottom where the roundel would be. It is sometimes hard to write something that the reader will perceive as the writer means it, if that makes sense. I did and do not mean the stripe is curved... that when the roundel is placed in the center of the stripe the top and bottom of the stripe has a curve, something like this:

___________________________ _________
__________________________( roundel/number )_________

I hope the above came out... I've edited it twice, and if it doesn't work, than so be it!!!

I made the curve comment so that you would know that when the stripe stopped for the number it wasn't a straight edge. If I were doing a model (or perhaps I should say when) if I use a decal I would use a compass to indicate where the roundel was, but I wouldn't use a roundel because I think the stripe would be seen under it. I also don't think there was a roundel... or maybe I think you don't need one since I think the car was white... but yes, looking at the picture I can see there may be a roundel... more and more interesting!

I also think, just considering the photo, which is in black and white, that we are bringing our own perceptions to it... ie: I am seeing a white car with a blue stripe because I think that is what it is, and because John Fitch said as much in his biography that I quoted in my first post. You are looking at it for all the good reasons stated above where you see a grey car with a dark stripe, either blue or black. I also think we may be looking at a white car, where the white is slightly darker than the white of the roundel so we seem to see a roundel in the picture. It must also be remembered that Fitch rented the car from Moss for the Italian GP, so it makes sense that he (they) repainted the car because they wanted a satisfied customer! They were both driving for Mercedes in sports cars at the time, as you know.

I would really like to know what reference that the model company in Stubbo's post used for a reference. It is the nose band there that "throws" me! Other than that, as far as I am concerned, the color is correct. Except that the blue stripe has a straight edge above the number!

Like you, I am picture posting challenged! So there is no point in you sending me the picture. I do, however, have a friend who has an extensive motor sport library, and I think he has the Oct. '55 Motor Sport. I will check with him to see if he has it, and if so I will have a look. It may be a week or more before I can see him. But as I said above, I think it may be the same picture. Arron and Hughes used many pictures from the LAT archive, so it well may be the same. If you are not familiar with their book, it has a photo of every car that took part in a WC race... well, not all, because there were some they couldn't find! It is by driver, so they show a picture of a driver in the car, then give the race numbers for that driver in that car in each race. There are a few pictures where the car/driver combination is in a non-championship race, but they give the other data... and since Fitch only drove one race in '55 as you pointed out, there is his picture.

As I said at the top of this post, this is more and more interesting! I hope we can get the correct answer!
 

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Tony Condon
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Hi Holger
The thick plottens !
Looks like I,ll be spending some more time in the haynes library next week

Cheers tony
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
Limerockist - you are so right. Very, very interesting indeed.

First of all let me state, that I totally misunderstood you about the curved central stripe on the nose. After reading your first topic I understood the central stripe to curve arround the nose/oil cooler. Now I understand the curved "ends" of the stripe under the nose roundel (if there was one?). Here I agree with you. Yes, if my "shadow" is a central stripe, then it is curved/follows the curve of the roundel.

A: We agree on curved ends in connection with a (maybe) roundel.

B: We agree on Union Jack nose

C: Was there a central stripe at all? On my photo is is more like a shadow, but Stubbo´s link may point in the stripe direction.

D: Was there a roundel? On my photo there is a clear difference in the colour of the car and the white of a roundel. If the car should be white, it is clearly a different white as on the circle behind the black race number. So I vote for a roundel.

E: Colour of car? "Autosport" and "Motor Sport" says grey, John Fitch says white and my photo clearly shows another colour than the white roundel. Could there be different shades of white? The Stubbo link shows a very bright shinning white car, but in reallity/theory it could have been everything between very light grey to egg white.

F: Roundels behind the rear race numbers?

Leaves me in doubt with C, E + F.

Next round please.

/Holger
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
Tony - seems that we were writing simultaneously. Yes please, take a deep dive into the library. Now it is becoming a real obsession - and passion.

/Holger
 

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Tony Condon
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Hi Holger
Right here is the definitive answer
the moss maser as raced at the 1955 italian GP was battleship grey with the red /white /blue nose band
I had a trawl through the motoring magazines in the library and in the october motorsport which has the report of the 1955 italian gp ,"jenks " who wrote the report says that fitch raced the GREY maserati belonging to stirling moss
Additionally there is a picture of the car in the centre section with the monza banking in the background, and although it is monochrome it clearly is not white and blue.
futhermore the car was raced only the week before by s Moss at aintree where it again was clearly grey .
Right having sorted that out I can report the ferrai 625s are coming along nicely and it is surprising how different they were by mid 1955 than the ferrari 500 they were based on .
bit more finishing on the body and then sort out the exhaust and she,ll by ready for rubber

cheers tony
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
Tony - thanks a lot. I admit I am not anyway near a master in the Queens English, but I read your topic as a confirmation of all my own evidenceses in this matter during the last couple of days and weeks. The same magazines, the same conclusions = the same colour of car. Overall battleship grey car with Union Jack nose and black race numbers in/on white roundels. Great.

And just as great are your news concerning the process of the 1955 Ferrari 625. Really appriciated. GREAT!

/Holger
 
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