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QUOTE The meeting is decided on a combination of concours points and racing points.
If only
If only
The future?
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Hi All, what I like about CSCRA races is the breadth of models, superb models racing around. I am often that obstacle that people have to negotiate probably because my chassis is not so well race prepared (no home running and too many other irons in the fire to really give the time). I tend to use Pitlane chassis in some form or other and although I have and can cobble a chassis together I would rather use a off the peg one with minor alterations. I enjoy the site of these cars going round, I like the people involved. Other SMS club members on visiting a Wolves race were smitten by the models run, the openness of the competitors and the speeds they were capable of.
Do I have an answer no other than I do not think its broken.
Do I have an answer no other than I do not think its broken.
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2,784 Posts
Hi folks
Some very good points made here by a lot of the contributors.
On balance I'm happy to continue as things are, I don't think we should restrict developments.
I enjoy the meetings to CSCRA rules.
Cheers
Dave
Some very good points made here by a lot of the contributors.
On balance I'm happy to continue as things are, I don't think we should restrict developments.
I enjoy the meetings to CSCRA rules.
Cheers
Dave
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1,295 Posts
Just a quick note on this banning thing. A Mack chassis only won one of the three races. The other two were won with Mick Kerr's brass and piano wire masterpieces. I don't like to see things confused by individuals trying to make a change to the regulations.
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1,295 Posts
I had put the previous post in the events section as I didn't see this. It really is a case of its not bust....so don't mess with it.
the only thing I will add is I wasn't happy with the odd looking Mustangs. I think that is something that should be watched.
See you all in September at Rockingham..
the only thing I will add is I wasn't happy with the odd looking Mustangs. I think that is something that should be watched.
See you all in September at Rockingham..
QUOTE Jeff Norton Posted Today, 07:16 PM
Hi There,-------- the answer to this 'problem' already exists and is in place at some meetings.
The meeting is decided on a combination of concours points and racing points.
Concours marking should include a score for chassis build quality, and points are only awarded if the chassis is self constructed. Richard Mack should be the only person given points for using a Richard Mack chassis, Therefore no one is going to win the meeting using one (except Richard) but it still enables newcomers like me to have fun racing them.
There are several 'issues' with this solution.
How any event is run is entirely up to the organizing club.
There are no CSCRA Sporting Regulation to cover such things.
As an example, the Netley event last weekend didn't have a formal concours competition for each class just a single award for the 'Best Presented Car' at the meeting.
In my experience many people who mark concours cars only ever look at the body anyway. Very few ever turn them over to see what is underneath.
Assuming we can persuade people to look at the chassis then-
If only Richard Mack can score concours points using a Mack chassis does that also mean that only Steve Ward can have concours points for using a Penelope Pitlane chassis, or that only Mauricio Ferrari can have concours points for using a Slot.It HRS chassis?
Taking this idea to it's logical conclusion-
Can only Hornby score concours points for using a Scalextric Camaro body on a Trans-Am car, or only George Turner for one of his bodies.
The other down side to the combined result system is that it means each entrant can only race one car, the one entered in concours, in each class.
Most CSCRA events are run on the heats & finals system and people often take the opportunity to run different cars in each heat.
At most of these events the rules usually insist that the concours car has to run in only one race.
Many entrants have more than one car for many classes, let's see them all racing I say.
There are also the concours specialists who build stunningly beautiful models but might choose not to enter them if they have to race them, and risk breaking them, in every race. It would be a shame to miss out on seeing these cars.
I am playing devil's advocate a bit with the above but you can probably deduce from it the reasons why most organizing clubs would not want to go down the combined results route.
I would, personally, be perfectly happy to enter any event run in this way.
Cheers.
Mick.
Hi There,-------- the answer to this 'problem' already exists and is in place at some meetings.
The meeting is decided on a combination of concours points and racing points.
Concours marking should include a score for chassis build quality, and points are only awarded if the chassis is self constructed. Richard Mack should be the only person given points for using a Richard Mack chassis, Therefore no one is going to win the meeting using one (except Richard) but it still enables newcomers like me to have fun racing them.
There are several 'issues' with this solution.
How any event is run is entirely up to the organizing club.
There are no CSCRA Sporting Regulation to cover such things.
As an example, the Netley event last weekend didn't have a formal concours competition for each class just a single award for the 'Best Presented Car' at the meeting.
In my experience many people who mark concours cars only ever look at the body anyway. Very few ever turn them over to see what is underneath.
Assuming we can persuade people to look at the chassis then-
If only Richard Mack can score concours points using a Mack chassis does that also mean that only Steve Ward can have concours points for using a Penelope Pitlane chassis, or that only Mauricio Ferrari can have concours points for using a Slot.It HRS chassis?
Taking this idea to it's logical conclusion-
Can only Hornby score concours points for using a Scalextric Camaro body on a Trans-Am car, or only George Turner for one of his bodies.
The other down side to the combined result system is that it means each entrant can only race one car, the one entered in concours, in each class.
Most CSCRA events are run on the heats & finals system and people often take the opportunity to run different cars in each heat.
At most of these events the rules usually insist that the concours car has to run in only one race.
Many entrants have more than one car for many classes, let's see them all racing I say.
There are also the concours specialists who build stunningly beautiful models but might choose not to enter them if they have to race them, and risk breaking them, in every race. It would be a shame to miss out on seeing these cars.
I am playing devil's advocate a bit with the above but you can probably deduce from it the reasons why most organizing clubs would not want to go down the combined results route.
I would, personally, be perfectly happy to enter any event run in this way.
Cheers.
Mick.
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921 Posts
If I may put in some input from someone that flirts around the edges of CSCRA style racing.
My enjoyment of this type of "historic" racing comes from doing the research, making the car look as accurate as possible, racing with people that are of like mind and that understand the cars of that period (whether it be 50's GP cars or 60's TransAm etc etc).
I make my cars using a ready made chassis. I do not have the tools, time or skill to produce a beautifully crafted scratch-built chassis.
Having said that, nor do I have the budget to afford the £35 for a Mack chassis if I want to complete all the cars I want to.
So I stick with the cheapest options I can (either PP or PCS).
I know in advance that I'm unlikely to win anything, but also I'm not there to make up the numbers. I'll race, and so long as I do my best with what I have then I'm happy [although concours taking into account the chassis has always mystified me, surely an accurate and well presented body on a tidy RTR chassis should stand higher than a scruffy, inaccurate body on a nicely crafted scratch-built chassis....sorry I digress].
It has been suggested that the likes of the Mack chassis (and possibly MTR) or anything which is "Hi-tech" should be banned by the CSCRA.
To my mind, this would be a retrograde step.
I always thought that the CSCRA was about utilising modern parts (shells, motors, chassis etc.) to recreate the look and feel of 1:1 period racing, or even at a pinch the Historic variants eg. Goodwood Revival?
There's a place for the true Retro slot racing using period parts, but that's not an (expensive) avenue I wish to go down.
I like the balance the CSCRA has achieved even if it is sometimes a bit of a juggling match with compromise, but at least it keeps "historic" racing within my reach.
This is probably a long-winded way of saying let's keep the status quo for now and see where it leads us.
Cheers
![]()
Phil Clayton
My enjoyment of this type of "historic" racing comes from doing the research, making the car look as accurate as possible, racing with people that are of like mind and that understand the cars of that period (whether it be 50's GP cars or 60's TransAm etc etc).
I make my cars using a ready made chassis. I do not have the tools, time or skill to produce a beautifully crafted scratch-built chassis.
Having said that, nor do I have the budget to afford the £35 for a Mack chassis if I want to complete all the cars I want to.
So I stick with the cheapest options I can (either PP or PCS).
I know in advance that I'm unlikely to win anything, but also I'm not there to make up the numbers. I'll race, and so long as I do my best with what I have then I'm happy [although concours taking into account the chassis has always mystified me, surely an accurate and well presented body on a tidy RTR chassis should stand higher than a scruffy, inaccurate body on a nicely crafted scratch-built chassis....sorry I digress].
It has been suggested that the likes of the Mack chassis (and possibly MTR) or anything which is "Hi-tech" should be banned by the CSCRA.
To my mind, this would be a retrograde step.
I always thought that the CSCRA was about utilising modern parts (shells, motors, chassis etc.) to recreate the look and feel of 1:1 period racing, or even at a pinch the Historic variants eg. Goodwood Revival?
There's a place for the true Retro slot racing using period parts, but that's not an (expensive) avenue I wish to go down.
I like the balance the CSCRA has achieved even if it is sometimes a bit of a juggling match with compromise, but at least it keeps "historic" racing within my reach.
This is probably a long-winded way of saying let's keep the status quo for now and see where it leads us.
Cheers
Phil Clayton
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618 Posts
QUOTE (loud bloke @ 13 Aug 2014, 20:03) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>the only thing I will add is I wasn't happy with the odd looking Mustangs. I think that is something that should be watched.
What was odd about the Mustangs ?
Mike
What was odd about the Mustangs ?
Mike
Interesting thoughts about concours
I like to see the extra detailing and other work added by the builder, and really good scratch built stuff. Yes there is some niece looking RTR stuff out there, but getting a RTR item out of the packet and on the track without mucking it up isn't going to get my concours vote.
If well made chassis are to to be judged, maybe that should be a separate award?
I like to see the extra detailing and other work added by the builder, and really good scratch built stuff. Yes there is some niece looking RTR stuff out there, but getting a RTR item out of the packet and on the track without mucking it up isn't going to get my concours vote.
If well made chassis are to to be judged, maybe that should be a separate award?
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2,754 Posts
QUOTE What was odd about the Mustangs ?
These are the Mustangs that were entered.
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The yellow one looks to be a standard (Pioneer?) car, but the red one looks like the arches have been cut and flares added, I think this is what David is refering to.
doesn't look to bad to me, but probably needs to be kept in check.
These are the Mustangs that were entered.
The yellow one looks to be a standard (Pioneer?) car, but the red one looks like the arches have been cut and flares added, I think this is what David is refering to.
doesn't look to bad to me, but probably needs to be kept in check.
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618 Posts
QUOTE (scaleslotcars @ 14 Aug 2014, 10:55) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>The yellow one looks to be a standard (Pioneer?) car.
It's a George Turner with RM Chassis (just to prove that Richard's chassis are not always a path to instant sucess)
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Mike
It's a George Turner with RM Chassis (just to prove that Richard's chassis are not always a path to instant sucess)
Mike
I agree with Phil about the concours scoring. I think having the chassis as part of the "score" puts anyone with a bought chassis at a disadvantage. Perhaps the chassis could be judged as a separate item in a constructors class,for instance? As for banning metal chassis where does that put,say,the MRRC clubmans chassis?
I think we all need to be very wary talking about banning anything. Every time you ban or restrict things,you risk alienating people. It may be slightly galling when your pride and joy is trounced by someone with a new trick chassis or super motor or whatever,but thats slot-racing....
TED........
I think we all need to be very wary talking about banning anything. Every time you ban or restrict things,you risk alienating people. It may be slightly galling when your pride and joy is trounced by someone with a new trick chassis or super motor or whatever,but thats slot-racing....
TED........
QUOTE (tedm @ 14 Aug 2014, 13:17) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>As for banning metal chassis .......
Was anybody was talking about banning metal chassis? Some people seemed to be encouraging the scratch building of metal chassis.
I'm sure somebody will correct me if I'm wrong, but don't metal chassis form a large part of the field at most of these events?
Was anybody was talking about banning metal chassis? Some people seemed to be encouraging the scratch building of metal chassis.
I'm sure somebody will correct me if I'm wrong, but don't metal chassis form a large part of the field at most of these events?
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It was banning laser cut spring steel.
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68 Posts
As for the concourse points , it's fine as it is
I don't expect people to get points for a chassis I have built , however if they buy a kit and assemble then they should get some reward.
I don't expect people to get points for a chassis I have built , however if they buy a kit and assemble then they should get some reward.
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1,453 Posts
In post #5 Mick admirably sums up CSCRA's aims.
After perhaps restarting this discussion (a good discussion is what this Forum is for) in my musings posted with the Netley Classic results, it seems that the response is soundly "No" bring them on.
If I have any nostalgia for slot racing in the 60's it is perhaps for the period when there was a great deal of inventiveness and many different ways of achieving a good result, which is probably what the CSCRA Regs produces.
After perhaps restarting this discussion (a good discussion is what this Forum is for) in my musings posted with the Netley Classic results, it seems that the response is soundly "No" bring them on.
If I have any nostalgia for slot racing in the 60's it is perhaps for the period when there was a great deal of inventiveness and many different ways of achieving a good result, which is probably what the CSCRA Regs produces.
Gentlemen.
Some very good and well thought out replies.
A couple of points.
I started this discussion to make sure Netleys event thread was not overtaken by talk of chassis design, when this CSCRA forum is the place to have that issue reveiwed.
As one of the main advocates for 'outlawing' Laser/spring steel chassis has now (see post 12) reconsidered his opinion, I think it is fair to say this debate has been a very healthy exercise.
At no time was anyone considering 'banning' anything least of all Richard's superb creations.
From time to time, it is worth gaining feedback from the general CSCRA members about important technical developments,be they chassis, motors, tyres or whatever.
The general consensus is to contnue our policy of any chassis construction, and material, and keep to our dimensional car specifications for each class.
I would also like to add my thanks, as I am sure you all do, to Mick Kerr for all the time and effort he puts in to keep the CSCRA up to scratch (pun intended!).
Thank you for all your replies, an intersting thread.
Concours was never intended to be part of this debate, and frankly probably needs a separate thread if people think its worth the effort to discuss.
Kind Regards Bill.
Some very good and well thought out replies.
A couple of points.
I started this discussion to make sure Netleys event thread was not overtaken by talk of chassis design, when this CSCRA forum is the place to have that issue reveiwed.
As one of the main advocates for 'outlawing' Laser/spring steel chassis has now (see post 12) reconsidered his opinion, I think it is fair to say this debate has been a very healthy exercise.
At no time was anyone considering 'banning' anything least of all Richard's superb creations.
From time to time, it is worth gaining feedback from the general CSCRA members about important technical developments,be they chassis, motors, tyres or whatever.
The general consensus is to contnue our policy of any chassis construction, and material, and keep to our dimensional car specifications for each class.
I would also like to add my thanks, as I am sure you all do, to Mick Kerr for all the time and effort he puts in to keep the CSCRA up to scratch (pun intended!).
Thank you for all your replies, an intersting thread.
Concours was never intended to be part of this debate, and frankly probably needs a separate thread if people think its worth the effort to discuss.
Kind Regards Bill.
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4,713 Posts
A move towards a 50/50 spilt between racing points and concours points - as per Bordo' and other meetings - and encouraging the judges to turn cars over would I think result in more points being awarded to cars with real 'scratch' chassis than those with Richards excellent chassis or with a HRS - one would hope.
I have tried and I can knock together a chassis but I cannot match an RM or a Mick Kerr chassis (the one MK chassis I have is a treasured item not yet blooded in competition
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)
So I buy an RM, fettle it as best I can and make an effort on the body (and even there I am blown away by the guys who do it right - Peter(s) various, David(s) various).
But this way I can go and race!
Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater by banning enabling technology like 'Monoposto' and RM chassis but try and encourage people to put the right size wheels on their models and get the 'stance' right...
Rant over - NEXT COMMENT PLEASE!
I have tried and I can knock together a chassis but I cannot match an RM or a Mick Kerr chassis (the one MK chassis I have is a treasured item not yet blooded in competition
So I buy an RM, fettle it as best I can and make an effort on the body (and even there I am blown away by the guys who do it right - Peter(s) various, David(s) various).
But this way I can go and race!
Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater by banning enabling technology like 'Monoposto' and RM chassis but try and encourage people to put the right size wheels on their models and get the 'stance' right...
Rant over - NEXT COMMENT PLEASE!
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2,134 Posts
There has not been too many posts on the forum of late that have held my attention for any
length of time but this one has.
having stopped racing, having no axe to grind and no personal agenda {hidden or otherwise}
I can look at these post with a fresh outlook and see them in quite a refreshing light, in fact
some are quite funny, having met, raced and known most contributors its quite entertaining.
It started with chassis and the buying/making there of, but we are now looking at the scoring
of points in concours events.
As Ted points out, in some quarters the chassis should be marked up/down because it has been
bought !!!! but hang on a second, on the top of said chassis sits a body, this could be a RTR
one, a GT body or Ocar have not these been bought also, are these to be given fewer mark
than a hand crafted body because of there purchase ?
I think at almost all classic meeting the number of cars that have had there body's carved, cast
and the chassis made by the same entrant could be counted on one finger!!!!
My thoughts have always been that the concourse light hearted part of the event that mimics
what goes on at the larger race meetings such as the Goodwood festival of speed, Silverstone
classic weekends and such.
A number of cars are placed in front of "the big house " these could be saloons, sports cars, race cars
from any era, then out troop these so called "celebrities" could be some 15 year old spotty youth
who has sold 396 recordings, an actor, so old that even the elephants have forgotten him, between
them they choose a winner and ever one goes home happy, there choice has no bearing on the
racing so why o why dose a slot meeting get its underwear all of a tangle with the so called
concourse points, PLEASE don't tell me its to improve the modelling, all the time Wolves have
run classic races there have been vast numbers of cars pass over the track, I have seen just one
"dog" and that was run for a reason.
This post has been very much tongue in cheek, I don't think there is too much wrong with what
you have at the moment, BUT I would like to add a note of warning, over the years, the hobby
has some times slipped into areas that cause great problems.
Why I say this is that at this point you have VERY fast metal chassis on rubber tyres, this makes
me wonder how long it will be before someone says "lets fit sponge tyres to see how fast they go".
{ I bet its been done by now}
Yes the rules as they stand say "no sponges" but if they are tried, liked and enough people like
it to put a meeting on and it takes off OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOh we are all DOOMED !!!!!!
Mac "youv got to laugh" P
length of time but this one has.
having stopped racing, having no axe to grind and no personal agenda {hidden or otherwise}
I can look at these post with a fresh outlook and see them in quite a refreshing light, in fact
some are quite funny, having met, raced and known most contributors its quite entertaining.
It started with chassis and the buying/making there of, but we are now looking at the scoring
of points in concours events.
As Ted points out, in some quarters the chassis should be marked up/down because it has been
bought !!!! but hang on a second, on the top of said chassis sits a body, this could be a RTR
one, a GT body or Ocar have not these been bought also, are these to be given fewer mark
than a hand crafted body because of there purchase ?
I think at almost all classic meeting the number of cars that have had there body's carved, cast
and the chassis made by the same entrant could be counted on one finger!!!!
My thoughts have always been that the concourse light hearted part of the event that mimics
what goes on at the larger race meetings such as the Goodwood festival of speed, Silverstone
classic weekends and such.
A number of cars are placed in front of "the big house " these could be saloons, sports cars, race cars
from any era, then out troop these so called "celebrities" could be some 15 year old spotty youth
who has sold 396 recordings, an actor, so old that even the elephants have forgotten him, between
them they choose a winner and ever one goes home happy, there choice has no bearing on the
racing so why o why dose a slot meeting get its underwear all of a tangle with the so called
concourse points, PLEASE don't tell me its to improve the modelling, all the time Wolves have
run classic races there have been vast numbers of cars pass over the track, I have seen just one
"dog" and that was run for a reason.
This post has been very much tongue in cheek, I don't think there is too much wrong with what
you have at the moment, BUT I would like to add a note of warning, over the years, the hobby
has some times slipped into areas that cause great problems.
Why I say this is that at this point you have VERY fast metal chassis on rubber tyres, this makes
me wonder how long it will be before someone says "lets fit sponge tyres to see how fast they go".
{ I bet its been done by now}
Yes the rules as they stand say "no sponges" but if they are tried, liked and enough people like
it to put a meeting on and it takes off OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOh we are all DOOMED !!!!!!
Mac "youv got to laugh" P
Apologies if I have misunderstood the banning metal chassis thing.I was just making the point that banning anything needs careful consideration. Mac P makes a good point about allowing sponge tyres,though-I think that would be the thin end of the wedge.....
TED.......
TED.......
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