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After a 6 month (ish) unwanted break from HO, I'm delighted to be getting back into it. I've really enjoyed the meetings that I have been to recently, EAHORC, DHORC, SQUIRM, and this Sundays test day at Yelling. But I am definately finding that my favourate races take place when the cars on the track are closely matched, and its the drivers and car builders that make the difference.

I enjoy using my TYCO in F1 but its more fun to run it against other TYCO's than it is to race against a mix of Maga's and Tycos. I enjoy the afternoon finals, whatever class I'm in, as in the final it is a race with similar cars.

But, the mixed qualifying is not to my taste. I would, if possible, like to see qualifying take place where the qualifiying heat is a race between roughly equal cars rather than a time trial with cars from different classes on the track at the same time.

I would be happy to see less classes, or meetings which go on a bit longer if this was to enable class based qualifying to take place.

What do other EAHORC racers think?
 

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Morning Crash, I completely agree with what you have stated above. A few months ago Tony @ Yelling ran a mini endurance evening where all four chassis where near enough identical. This proved to be an excellent evening where the race was extremely close right to the wire. He also ran 4 BMW's on a basic track and that to was unbelievely close race.
 

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John,

Good to see you posting. Hope to see you in person in Kent on the 30th.

Less classes would of course mean curtailing some, and if you saw how Tony reacted to the possibility of Mod being chopped you would know that some people hang on to 'their' classes with a vengeance. Over the years the popularity of the classes has waxed and waned, often in ways nobody foresaw, as people take full advantage of the choices open to them.

The mixed classes came about because on the one hand we had a few people who wanted to go faster (which is how WHP class came to be), and a very few who did not like the fact you had to have a Marchon if you wanted to win the one afternoon class. Along with the many improvements made along the way, I tweaked the Chesterfield spreadsheets so that there were no empty lanes during heats (something that always bugged me, sometimes you could go a whole meeting without being in a four car race at all). The Harland sheets we use now throw up a three laner now and again if we have an odd number of competitors, but the upsides of it make that acceptable to me.

Just to indicate once again how people focus on different things, after the Purton meeting Tony and a couple of others were unhappy at how long the day had been, and this despite Rob Lees doing sterling work on race control, the Harland sheets being used and the paired heats. The efficiency measure really 'earn their keep' on longer days like that, to separate the classes would undo a lot of that, unless by some miracle all four classes had an entry number divisible by four.

If we want to retain people's right to race in the class of their choice, and do what you can to make sure the day is not too long, the current system is a 'necessary evil'. Although, again, that is a personal thing, as is the Mega/Tyco debate. I don't focus on the cars around me overly much when we line up to start a heat. Sure, I will race any car that I come close to during a race, probably more than I should since the heats should be about getting a good lane later on, but I don't really know what class they are in or what chassis they have.

More to follow...
 

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QUOTE (Crash @ All Corners @ 18 Oct 2011, 00:30) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>I enjoy using my TYCO in F1 but its more fun to run it against other TYCO's than it is to race against a mix of Maga's and Tycos. I enjoy the afternoon finals, whatever class I'm in, as in the final it is a race with similar cars.

But, the mixed qualifying is not to my taste. I would, if possible, like to see qualifying take place where the qualifiying heat is a race between roughly equal cars rather than a time trial with cars from different classes on the track at the same time.

What do other EAHORC racers think?

Ok how I agree with you John and Lee.

If you have 4 or more racers there would not be more heats, 5 racers = 5 heats with the drivers rotating around the 5 heat block!
 

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I like the current set up for what it offers.

Race one class in the morning and then a completely different experience in the afternoon - with the choice of 4 classes.

Although I was known to race the Mod cars in my heats when I was in Nascar, I do think the 'time trial' aspect of the afternoon has made me a better racer in terms of getting the best score out of each lane. Whether I have the 'killer instinct' in a head-to-head race is another question


At WHO we race the same class each time, but there are quick and slow racers in each heat. It's all part of the mix, but others might argue otherwise and say we should segregate out the quick guys from the gentleman drivers.

For example, at some BSCRA clubs, drivers do their heats with racers at the same level. If you're new, you stay in the slow heat until you prove yourself worthy of stepping up to the not-so-slow guys - which might be a 4-5 year wait, or longer.

Personally, I think that is more than a little disrespectful, although the top drivers might argue they are protecting their £500 investments. Thankfully we don't have that dilemma in HO


Oh, and I've really enjoyed running a Tyco in F1 at WHO this year - I made all but one of the 'A' finals and beat a fair few Mega-Gs along the way - including several Martechs. I might run it again next season
 

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QUOTE (slowracer @ 18 Oct 2011, 06:50) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>5 heats with the drivers rotating around the 5 heat block!

That would still take six heats, with the pairs system, unless the five in question did all their heats at once. That is not something I am favour of, for several well documented reasons. So, if it just so happens that that the other three classes have an odd number of entrants too, you are adding a lot of heats to an already long day. You didn't like long days either if I recall, and you can't have it both ways.

One thing I have already considered is ProMod having their own heats next time there are eight of those taking part. If you look at the spreadsheets since we went back to four afternoon classes, it is only ProMod that has the startling speed differential, so when there is 8 of them it would be possible to segregate them without impacting on the day at all.

Obviously the HO nationals involve a series of compromises, and inevitable consequence of their raison d'être - to get as many people into HO in it's broadest sense racing together. At club level, racing weekly, one has the luxury of being able to segregate cars by speed, chassis, body type or whatever other parameter a club chooses to care about. One-make series and themed series can work on the back of the those clubs providing the people to make it successful, the HO equivalent being the recently announced Vintage series being able to tap into the national guys.

With the HO nationals the net had to be cast wide. Up until about 2000 they were in a pretty poor state, despite the occasional blip attendances tended to be very poor, the rules were incredibly restrictive and not much effort was being made to find new racers. I was told by several people doing so would be a waste of time, but I tried anyway. The wide net was the only way that would work, coupled with persistence and diligence, and luckily enough it did.

The consequence is that there is probably something that every nationals participant wishes was different, the key is just to focus on your own racing and try and come out on top against a slew of people doing the same.
 

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Great to hear you're back on the scene John. I'll let the drivers and car builders dig ride cos we've missed you
and pass up on the magnet and bulkhead collectors repost for the same reason


Back when I was racing NASCAR against mod and Wizzard I didn't see a problem but I guess now we are runnung 3ohm Neo pro's the question becomes valid. Keeping the heat count down is important but so is people having fun and I know some folk find the Pro Mods offputting so perhaps Deanes idea of seperating the pro mods out next time there are 4 or 8 of us (or a lower number of total entrants) is worth a try.

In fact Deane probably has an idea what the maximum/ideal number of heats for the day are and perhaps that could be the consideration?

Personally I think 'racing' the other lanes is not a great idea in the heats compared to maximising you're potential lane by lane, why leave anything on the table or try to go faster than you can just because someone else is? Then race each other in the finals where position is everything and totals nothing! But I've had a mare of a start to the season so what do I know
 

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I would not do it for only four Promods, but any number from six up would be worth considering.

The idea came to with regard to the LMP1 class, in fact. With the long wheelbase and the nose issue, I did consider seperating them if there were even numbers but all the classes bar Mod at Marlborogh had odd mumbers. There is probably going to be an odd number of ProMods at HONK too, but it is something I am keeping an eye on.
 

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Splitting the Pro-Mods out of the mixed heats for the afternoons is a superb tweak for the afternoons. It is all very well for people to say "concentrate on your own car and get the laps in" but say your car is white and is already a blurred missile travelling around the track and it is then passed by a white pro-mod travelling even quicker. It is incredibly easy to find your attention switching to the pro mod car rather than your own and in the time it takes to work out why your car appears to be gripping so much more than it was earlier, your real car has crashed once, been put back on and crashed again!

Nascars and Mods can definitely race each other quite comfortably and I imagine the LMP cars can also fit in that mix as well.
 

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At Yelling the fastest lap time for Mod was about 3% faster than that for Nascar, which was 3% faster than for LMP1.

Interestingly the speed difference within each class is 25% (Nascar), 16% (LMP1) and 13% (Mod).

The differential for the Pro-Mods vs the rest was 29% at Marlborough, by contrast. So from that snapshot (all we can do as LMP1 has only run twice) the fastest Nascar going past the slowest is only 4%-8% less traumatic than a Pro-Mod going past something else. Nonetheless, under exactly the right conditions it is something I will look at.

There will be no thin-end-of-the-wedgeism though. We will not end up with every class, every grade, every driver ability and every chassis seperated, that truly would be time trials, and we would be finishing at 10PM...
 

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QUOTE (Leet @ 18 Oct 2011, 06:06) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>...ran a mini endurance evening where all four chassis where near enough identical. This proved to be an excellent evening where the race was extremely close right to the wire. He also ran 4 BMW's on a basic track and that to was unbelievably close race.

That is not really a fair comparison. SCHORC can race 365 times a year (realistically 50, and that is before one factors in the focus on weekend meetings), so there is plenty of time to do all kinds of things. I am sure that one can find exactly the same thing in 1/32nd scale, clubs racing every week with some of the classes being very stock or even IROC (which is what you are describing), but the guys using their own cars built to a massive variety of specs and abilities when the race in the Slot.it challenge.

We all like close racing, and to be in the mix. Nationally things have been very close (especially in qualifying, and especially in Open Wheel) for some time now. As somebody said at Marlborough, have a bad heat you don't drop one final, you drop three, so there is plenty of competition out there.
 

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QUOTE (montoya1 @ 18 Oct 2011, 11:52) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>At Yelling the fastest lap time for Mod was about 3% faster than that for Nascar, which was 3% faster than for LMP1.

Interestingly the speed difference within each class is 25% (Nascar), 16% (LMP1) and 13% (Mod).

The differential for the Pro-Mods vs the rest was 29% at Marlborough, by contrast. So from that snapshot (all we can do as LMP1 has only run twice) the fastest Nascar going past the slowest is only 4%-8% less traumatic than a Pro-Mod going past something else. Nonetheless, under exactly the right conditions it is something I will look at.

There will be no thin-end-of-the-wedgeism though. We will not end up with every class, every grade, every driver ability and every chassis seperated, that truly would be time trials, and we would be finishing at 10PM...

I like those stats. Could you do the same thing for the Worthing round from June? I know that the top 3 or 4 Nascars were all faster than Mod but not sure how it would skew the numbers.

Also, do you have any idea why we (the Nascars) were faster that day when on average you'd expect Nascar to be slower than Mod?

This just because I find it interesting!
 

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June was amazing, Dave in Nascar and Paul in Mod were split by tiny Margins. In terms of lap time Dave was less than 1% faster, and in terms of biggest score he was 0.002% better


Martin was 35% faster than the fastest non-ProMod, but also 7% and 21% faster than the next 2 in his own class.

Depth-wise Nascar was covered by 8%, Mod 15%, and Pro 29%.
 

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I believe it also shows that the situation is not as bad as John Perhaps thinks, at least when the ProMods don't run or there isn't one in your heat. Those field spreads within classes surprised me being as big as they are.

Having said that I have seen field spreads between adults at a club that only allows one chassis of 53%, and John has raced there. How must that feel, being passed or having to pass somebody at twice the speed?

I know Disraeli said ''Lies, damned lies, and statistics'', and with good reason, but it is fascinating what you uncover when you look at hard data.
 

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I personally don't understand people moaning about how long a days racing is people turn up to race and it takes as long as it takes
I like F1 but to be honest if pro mod wasn't there in the afternoon I wouldn't bother going as I have said be for I find F1 a bit boring I just don't get the buzz I get when I a racing my pro mod
The format that is there at the mo I have no problem with it works
And if F1 was to go all mega g with separate for Tyco I still think the mega g should stay as they are for tyres and such
 

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To be fair there has not been a great deal of moaning and that which took place after a previous FLBT meeting definitely had a politically-motivated feel to it. Then too one of the serial moaners used to do so at about 4pm. When he lived nearer than all but two others. When he did not stay to pack up.

Nonetheless, one of the things that EAHORC has been about is making things more professional, without losing the fun. The more efficient spreadsheets are part of that, take those away and the desire to be efficacious and I can see things slipping to a 1830 finish easily, which means 1930 for the packing-up crew and some getting home very late at night.

Like everything then, it is a balancing act, and you won't please everyone.
 

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Interesting stuff.

Gareth, just to be clear I DO recognise the problem you speak of 100% and those fascinating stats remind me of the round we held up at NSR. I was battling your own Andy Player for 2nd in the pro mod A final when Martins leading G3 lapped us and took my car clean off on the way past so much quicker was it. Nobodys fault just physics.
 

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I know I ran pro mod at Marlborough, but prior to that have I have ran mod in the afternoons. The speed differential of the pro mods was so great I didn't find it distracted me, I was more likely to end up 'racing' a nascar.

I'm quite lucky being located where I am as I'm fairly central and my travel times aren't as long as others but I personally think the days are long enough when you factor in the travelling, splitting out the heats will just make them longer.

Just my two pence worth...
 
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