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Thought it was time I posted a few pic's of my latest project:

Font Rectangle Auto part Parallel Line art


Rectangle Font Material property Art Pattern


Art Wood Circuit component Rectangle Font


Hood Motor vehicle Bumper Wood Automotive design


Water Motor vehicle Watercraft Naval architecture Scale model


Motor vehicle Aircraft Airplane Font Rectangle


Wood Font Gas Art Space


Green Blue Wood Motor vehicle Hood


Creative arts Automotive exterior Wood Rectangle Bumper


Wood Auto part Fashion accessory Metal Musical instrument


Wood Art Natural material Fashion accessory Metal


There's still a long way to go. It is of course going to utilise the Matchbox kit.

Andi
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
It was supposed to be a play on Rolf Harris's art program....... Since it started with a bit of paper no!!??

NOT a serious question....... Anyway well done you guys for working it out!!!! What gave it away the 4 front wheels?

Andi
 

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So, I've been working on this again after a break.....

I managed to make one of those really annoying errors that make you want to throw the whole thing away and never work on it again!

Having originally thought ot use the Beardog 030 motor I then realised that that just wasn't going to move this car quick enough so decided on the slim line motor type but somehow (probably drunk) managed to measure it 5mm too short and then found it wouldn't fit. Duuhh. I've resoleved that now by modifying the chassis enough...

So let me just say a few words about the inspiration for this build. I'm currntly into the '70's F1 thing as I think it is a very interesting period in the evolution of motor racing. The cars really changed dramatically over a very short time and every car was completely different from the next. I love that as it makes for interesting grids with some types working on some tracks and vice-versa - for slot cars too.

Having made a space frame car (Vanwall) and completed that kit-bash of the Surtees I really wanted to make up the P34 kit but on receiving the kit and realising that it contained a model of the whole interior chassis detail (unlike the earlier Surtees) I couldn't resist to try to model it.

Of course being me I wanted to make a REAL monocoque such that it was self supporting, not just a sham. AND it needed to be metal but it took quite a long time to realise that instead of fixing together seperate thin sheets of metal I needed to develop the origami idea into a single piece of metal folded up.

I used 0.2mm thick sheet which in hindsight is much thicker than it needs to be. If I were to do it again (which I wont) I'd use 0.1mm as a start since once folded up it is extremely rigid.

Now the chassis is done the first thing I started is the 4 wheel steering. Obviously the most fascinating thing about this car IS the 4 wheel steering so I HAD to build that. On the Vanwall the steering was the last thing I tackled and the least convincing (it worked of course but looked a bit rubbish). So here I decided to start with this. Also because if I failed then I wouldn't waste time on the rest of the build first.....

Slope Font Parallel Pattern Triangle


I started by fabricating the stub axles witha pivot link point inboard and a screw thread outboard so the wheels can be screwed on.

Wood Auto part Metal Fashion accessory Tool


The kit wheels were drilled out and a brass bush added to rotate on the axles.

Azure Liquid Fluid Household supply Gas


Trial assembled last night in different positions you can see that the front and back axles have already been linked together to work in tandem. All that's missing now is the link to the guide.

Wood Handwriting Office supplies Metal Writing implement


Brown Wood Amber Metal Fashion accessory


The A frames are wider apart than the stub axle pivot tube so that the stub axles will all be able to travel up and down a little to take up any road imperfections.

So far so good.....

Cheers

Andi
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
QUOTE (Race-Jan @ 20 Oct 2011, 09:27) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>did you account for the difference in steering between the first and second front axle?

Jan

You know I spent around two weeks on the computer trying to model that. Moving the wheel pivot point, the steering arm pivot point, the guide pivot point etc.

As anyone knows if you have three variables there are almost infinite outcomes.

I got fairly close in the end but just couldn't quite resolve it. Whatever I did I could get three of the wheels (always the front two and the inner rear) making the three different and appropriate arcs but the 4th wheel always looked like it was pointing in the wrong direction.

Then I researched the real car and finally when I was quite mad foud that Tamiya made a 1:10 RC version of this car which helped me a lot.

All in all I decided to ignore the problem of the front and rear having different rotations so that on each side the wheels will rotate the same back and front, but instead the inner TWO wheels WILL have a different rotation from the outer.

Its the best I can do. Actually I found no evidence to suggest that Tyrrell resolved this better than me either. If anyone knows a) how to do it or
whether Tyrrell did it i'd be really interested......

Thanks Jan for the question. The bar should always be moving upwards otherwise we're not learning anything.

Cheers

Andi
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
That's pretty much what I came up with. Maybe i'm wrong (you'd need to redraw it all as it steers left or right) but that will make 3 work but always the 4th looks odd.

Again I could be wrong.....

Andi
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
Oh, Jan by the way one (maybe) of the reasons why its more complex than that is that the movement of the central guide pivot is in itself an arc. What that means is that there is a non-linear movement between the inner and outer sides when the guide link arm goes from centre to outer and vice-versa.......

I did about 30 sets of drawings using different principles. if I have time i'll post a few.

Finally, its not the rear outer that goes wrong its the rear inner. What happened to my attempts was that the rear inner ends up sterring LESS than the front inner so it looks really horrible.......

Andi
 

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QUOTE (Race-Jan @ 20 Oct 2011, 13:55) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
you will have to have the outer wheels steer more than the inner wheels, AND the fronts slightly more than the rears.
So: inner front steers the most, outer rear steers the least. outer front and inner rear both are somewhere inbetween...

Jan

Are you sure Jan?

My own work has led me to believe that isn't quite right:

Slope Font Parallel Pattern Triangle


Of course at the point that the maximum steering angle is much larger (as it might have been in the real car but not in my slot version) the outer front might 'overtake' the inner rear such that the angles switch.

All in all however you can see that it is quite counter intuitive when all drawn out.

This was one of my closest attempts:

Font Parallel Art Engineering Pattern


And this was the actual version I opted for:

Font Schematic Parallel Engineering Pattern


BUT I can be wrong still - I am not a mechanical engineer so am more than happy if someone enlightens me......
 

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Discussion Starter · #27 ·
QUOTE (howmet tx @ 20 Oct 2011, 15:16) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Or in honour of Al 'BWA' Penrose you could just let them all trail steer- they'll find their own path....

Errrr, did that ever actually work. I once asked Al to show photos of the complete car but as far as i know he never did.....

Plus it would require that all wheels touched the ground all the time.

Plus if any oscillatory vibration ever occured............

Don't really think it'd work on the Tyrrell somehow

PS Jan the footage was indeed great although I personally couldn't quite see the exact steering geometry one way or the other.

Thanks for the discussion....
 

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I think the trailing axis idea is great up to a point. I'm concerned on several levels whuch I guess wouldneed to be tested but i'm not going to risk.
1. With two front axles I feel there is a real risk that at certain times the two wheels might point in different directions which wouldn't look too authentic! This might be exaserpated by the fact that here we run on Ninco not on smooth routed.
2. With tyres that are almost as wide as their diameter I personally am worried that the drag created by only one touching the ground might not have the effect that Al's cars have.

I can be soooo wrong but don't want to risk.

Then I LIKE that when I pick the car up and twiddle the guide all four wheels will turn.....

Plus of course i've made the axles now and I really CAN'T do them again.

Finally, i'm worried that your diagram isn't really quite right. You do need to consider the rear axle especially on non-diff cars.
 

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Light Automotive lighting Amber Eyewear Tints and shades


Wheel Tire Automotive tire Motor vehicle Tread


So I've made sufficient progress to post a bit more.

My ideas about my builds are centred on what I call 'conceptual symmetry'. To me that means trying to build into the model the most important concepts of a given design when it was of course new and real.

For the P34 the most important thing then was the four front wheel steering for which it was unique in F1. However like most cars of its era it also had a monocoque 'one egg' in French and finally it had a fully stressed motor (the ol' DFV) to which the rear end was then fixed.

So that is what my model has. 4 front wheel steering, a stressed skin monocoque made of metal and a motor bolted to it such that the rear 'suspension' and 'gearbox' are floating off the back of it.

Got a few test laps in last night and it seems fairly interesting.

Obviously a LOT of finishjng still to be done....

Andi
 

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Discussion Starter · #38 ·
Thanks for the general positive comments.

QUOTE (RikoRocket @ 12 Nov 2011, 22:15) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>is the motor to gear stiffness adequate enough with that tiny wire to stop pinion to contrate movement?

What I love about this forum and sloting in general is that in many ways the problems are limited but the solutions almost infinite.

In my 2 or so years on here i've learnt so much from watching other people and what they do and the trip to EB's helped enormously too.

This car then is my first attempt to take hard learned lessons from others and adapt it to my unique approach!

So instead or rigid with suspension i'm trying to go flexible since that's what I see you pro's doing..... I learnt alot from David Lawson for example.

Of course, with the motor rigid the rear end had to rotatevaround the pinion and so as you so easily saw the problem is avoiding pinion contrate movement. My solution is that there is a circular brass collar fitted tightly around the motor shaft bearing housing that means that only rotation is possible and no other movement.

Certainly tollerance means, as i'm sure you're suggesting that this can never be perfect especially since torsion creates an in and out movement too but it seems to work so far.

I reckon it will last race distance and if it explodes on the line? Well many in F1 history would say that was a job well done........

Thanks to all

Andi
 

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Thanks for everyone's kind words - it does help in the dead of night when you know someone else likes what you are doing.....

So all the main (working) parts are now fabricated and painted so they just need the final assembly. Plus then the body has to be painted up and added on.

Strange how the top of the chassis was always blue. I guess becuase the first version (1976) had the top of the chassis exposed so they all got painted. Then the same chassis were used in 1977 without bothering to remove the paint despite it being totally covered by the bodywork!!

Just added that little bit extra stress......

Wood Electric blue Gas Automotive exterior Auto part


Toy Motor vehicle Wood Machine Trigger


Circuit component Electronic instrument Hardware programmer Audio equipment Musical instrument accessory


Wood Automotive exterior Engineering Auto part Tool


Cheers

Andi
 

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So I'm writing on iPhone so I'll be short and maybe write more later.
I set out to test some ideas and convert the matchbox kit into a slotcar.
As I tend to do it grew a bit obsessive but now I see a pattern emerging; I realise the model is finished when my wife starts to scream at me....... Otherwise I'd never stop. There really is no point to stop is there? A model can be anything the builder wants it to be.
But I want to be clear this is not a static model electrified. This is supposed to be a full on racing machine. So was the Vanwall but obviously that just couldn't compete with modern brass chassis and powerfull motors.

I set out to take the concepts of this brilliant original design and engineer them to slot car scale:
4 wheel steering - all with vertical suspension movement of course.
Fully stressed motor
Real monocoque of metal
What evolved was a rear suspension system which moves closer to what I see people doing on here.
The idea is to really minimise unsprung weight by linking the motor to the chassis and allowing the rear axle to pivot. Not new I know but the rear links are thin and flexible so it seems to work??
Gears are always tricky for me as I need them small. I tried Ranch design and the pinions are great but the alloy crown chewed after just a few laps. In the end the only thing is Ostorero crowns in bronze but they only do 27t which limits things. I've used 9t pinion so far but the car is too long so have now fitted 8t. Hope that calms it for the corners.
Results suggest it works reasonably well. It is a second quicker than anything I've produced to date and getting close to my benchmark: NSR Ford P68 which is race ready!

Anyway here are a few pic's....

Tire Car Vehicle Wheel Automotive tire


Tire Vehicle Wheel Helmet Car


Tire Wheel Land vehicle Helmet Sports equipment


Vehicle Product Car Motor vehicle Gas


Tire Wheel Automotive tire Car Vehicle


Tire Wheel Sports equipment Automotive tire Car


Tire Wheel Automotive tire Vehicle Motor vehicle


Tire Wheel Vehicle Automotive tire Car


Tire Wheel Vehicle Car Automotive tire


Tire Vehicle Wheel Car Automotive tire


Tire Wheel Automotive tire Vehicle Motor vehicle


Vehicle Toy Automotive tire Motor vehicle Light


Land vehicle Motor vehicle Toy Blue Car


Vehicle Automotive tire Tire Motor vehicle Automotive design


Tire Wheel Car Vehicle Automotive tire


Automotive tire Adhesive Gas Technology Audio equipment


Danny, Phil et al, I hope the screws are small enough this time.

Cheers
Andi
 

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Discussion Starter · #48 ·
Hi Joel

Thay are in fact 64 pitch gears though they may look bigger in the pictures! Its a scale thing - this is tiny.....

My problems stem from the overall diameter needed in order that the crown is less than 11.5mm dia. which is about as big as it can be to clear the top and bottom links of the rear suspension for most of the cars of this period if one is trying for scale (which obviously I am).

All the other 64 and 72 pitch gears i've found (and i've done a lot of searching) appear to have a larger diameter than that. Now if i've missed something and ABslot etc. do have smaller dia. gears in these pitches PLEASE tell me as i'd love to know. It would allow me much better tuning possibilities.

Thanks for the comments so far by the way.

Cheers

Andi
 

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Discussion Starter · #52 ·
So now on a real computer I can write easier....

I wanted to do something slightly different this time. I wanted to write the series of frustrations, mistakes and down right cock-ups that I made with this car. These threads can get a bit sychophantic if one is not careful - not that I don't like a bit of praise just like the rest of us but I think these posts should offer a little more insight into the real goings on, when one is alone, working it out, late at night and getting stressed. That is the real 'space' that scratch builders inhabit - the moment of 'completion' is just that, a moment after many many moments of thought, action and reaction.

In fact the complete car is in many ways a total anticlimax. Its done, so now what? Put it in the cupboard and start another.......

Its a strange world!!

So, as I mentioned before the first mistake was to miscalculate the length of the motor so that it wouldn't fit INSIDE the chassis. I discounted the FF 030 beardog motor on the grounds that it just isn't competitive ont he type of circuits that we race on here. I dropped the whole project for amonth after that before finally plucking up courage to cut out sufficient of the chassis behind the seat so the motor would slip through. I finally worked out you see that once the seat was in you would really not notice as the flared seat back essentially hid everything. It was a BAD moment though..

Another bad moment was the soldering of the front suspension arms (A frames). I was using my usual soldering iron, having given up on the gas torch years ago with the Vanwall. The problem was that given the weight of the brass I just couldn't get enough heat just (and only) where I needed. So I went a bought the torch which took about 3 weeks in itself and then, as I've always found ended up making a total mess as it proceeded to melt all the solder apart from the bit I needed. i don't want to go into another discussion about soldering here as I have a LOT of experience but this was very difficult to control and again I left the model for a month before getting the patience back to try again!!!

That brings us to testing. The car was complete to the stage of the post before last. I.e. chassis and motor detail done but no body cover, driver etc. I took it to Gubbio, our track which is very fast and quite large. i don't remember excatly the dimensions but I think the striaght must be 8m and overall it must be about 35m. Here competition cars lap around 11.2 sec's although my handicap is around 1s more than that. My 'fan car' is capable of around 12.3 (me 13.2) but with me driving a standard F1 March and my Surtees with a Scaley FF motor can only manage about 14.3s. I ran the car hard and fast all night with my new slot.it controller and managed to get down to 13.2s and Walter Merulli (ex italian champ) got it down to 12.2s with which I was well and truly happy!!
Anyway at a certain point at full throtle down the straight the trigger seized at full gas and the car went off the end, hit the low flexible barrier, bounced up, hit the wall still moving very fast and landed on the floor some 3m away. At frist glance one could see that the rear wing, oil radiators and exhausts were all smashed but what I only discovered later was that the impact probably on the floor had bent the whole rear end of the car slightly to one side so that all the trailing links were bent and this had also wrenched the motor sideways (remember the motor is screw fixed to the chassis). It has been a major struggle to get that all back in line again.

Finally, painting. For many people on here the 'body' and the painting is where scratch building starts and stops. So obviously I recognise that this is an important part of the overall art. However for me by the time I arrive to sorting out the body and well and trully fed up with the whole project. I see myself as more of an engineer - designer than a painter - decorator and so for me its far more important to understand the original engineering concepts of the car and transfer them to 1:32 than it is to spray. I'm at least partly saying this as i'm just not that good at painting........ It just takes me ages and so many coats going back and forth between colours to get a decent finish. Most of that is because masking around curves is just so hard. How is that done properly. not to mention I have to paint at 5am as that is the only moment when noone is int he living room!! Yes I spray on the dining table as its the only place warm enough. Finally everything was done, i'd finished Depailler's helmet about 30 mins before, all I had to do was assemble and I realised Depailler was just sitting too high. So I had to cut a lot off his bottom and legs. Of course i'm too impatient to wait so while I do it I totally mess up the still tacky paint on his helmet. What a palava!! Easier to paint 1:1 than 1:32 I can tell ya.......

Well there ya go - a few insights into this project.....

Enjoy

Andi
 

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Discussion Starter · #54 ·
QUOTE (merkit the grof @ 22 Dec 2011, 11:57) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>11.5!!

Ahhh, yes Joel - I thought that might get ya!!!

In fact the Ranch Design crowns of 24t are around 10.5mm diameter so we are talking REALLY small. But they are only aluminium and given I do have some very slight play and they have short teeth they mash up immediately.

I think the HO gears is the way to go int he future. If you see Beardog's Ferrari 1512 it has a completely enclosed gearbox which just takes it to another level. He says he has HO gears in that so I might have to ask him what and where..... Again though i'm not sure if they can take the ware and tear.....

Andi
 

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Discussion Starter · #55 ·
QUOTE (Julian_Boolean @ 22 Dec 2011, 12:10) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>axles are thinner on HO cars.

Could be perfect - I could sleeve the wheels to fit and it'd help the scale feel if the axle was thinner. Might bend though if I had a big 'off'.
 

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Discussion Starter · #62 ·
Hi there Ken
Thanks for sharing your gear experiences.
The reason that wouldn't work on this build is that the aforementioned 'suspension', i.e. flexibility in the rear end just mashes those aluminium gears since they have short teeth.
Despite the fact that a collar keeps the gears meshing very well there is of course tollerance movement under load.

To see what the final effect is see the link to my little film:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7xmCT0pZMLU...be_gdata_player

Cheers
Andi
 
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