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Have to laugh at my own posts when the auto correct kicks in....

"males Taurus"...

For anyone new to scalextric racing, I am quite happy to start a new thread on "How to Tell the Sex of your Scalextric Cars".....
 

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Gary Skipp
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I've been watching this thread from the beginning.

QUOTE (LeMan1960 @ 7 Sep 2016, 23:21) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>For me, I'm off to the track.

This is the single best piece of advice in the entire topic.

Lets be clear about a few things:

- Regardless of how one may prepare tyres for slot car racing, track surface has, I think, got only a single mention in the entire topic and this is a major, major factor. Good luck to anyone oiling tyres for plastic (read mostly; Ninco) track. You will successfully draw the dust from the troughs in the track surface and have zero grip at all. Please, continue to do this on the OP's 'excellent' advice


- LeMan1960. Where do you actually race? Actually. You refer to the 'Slot.it challenge crowd' and 'other expert racers' yet as someone who has been racing all kinds of slot cars nationally for the last 11 years I don't believe I have ever made your acquaintance. Now, I don't race Slot.it challenge so it's quite possible that you do, but the general tone of your article(s) suggests you are somebody looking up to that group from the outside. The fact that you are using wooden track preparation techniques and referring to a plastic track racing series doubles my curiosity. The reason for my asking is not necessarily to doubt your authority or experiences but more to establish the context from which you write. Tuning tyres to work in your attic is a lot different from tuning tyres to work on a club circuit. Or another club circuit. Or a different one again, three times over.

- Kevan. You will not overheat your tyres for them being narrow. And if you did, they wouldn't wear. The surface would melt, then go hard, and probably become the most durable & hard-wearing tyre you have in your pit box. Ask the guys who screwed up on the Hudy and see what happened to their overheated tyres.

- 300SLR is NOT Maurizio Ferrari. That's the best mistake of the bunch, and it carries on for three pages!
Who knows, maybe this topic is actually about motors when this kind of mistaken identity is in play..

And finally, particularly to any novices reading, I would politely suggest that any information here is taken with a pinch of salt. The comparison to 1:1 racing tyres through the website Race Car Dynamics is most amusing, and whilst it may make interesting reading (personally it bores me to death) it has precisely zero to do with driving or preparing a scale slot car. If one MUST compare with 1:1 then a go-kart with solid rear axel and fixed alignment is a more appropriate example than a car. However the fact it still uses a pneumatic tyre, with a certain specific construction that responds to certain specific variables, still really blows any comparison out of the water.

There IS some great information here.. Rick your preparation how-to is is well written and the input from others is also sound in places. But is essential to understand the context and the viewpoints of each of the contributors before thinking you've learned any 'black magic'. I very much doubt that each of the contributors are singing from the same sheet when establishing their reasoning.



in the best spirits,

Gary Skipp
Tyre Engineer (OEM performance division)
BEng Motorsport Engineering (from Coventry, the same ticket as that Rodrigo guy from that website)
1:1 racer
1:32 racer
 

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Living the Life&#33;
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Greg K - I have take out your comments - add NO VALUE at all to the discussion - abie321
 

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WRP World Champ 2015/2016
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Gary, I must take up one point from your post with you. At our local clubs that run Ninco track, conditioning tyres with oil does yield a significant laptime improvement.
We don't go to the lengths of getting them gooey (I once heard the consistency described as "chewing gum"), but conditioning with oil over several days does help. All tyres must be dry to the touch before going on track.
 

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Gary Skipp
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6,506 Posts
Hi Martyn

There could be a number of reasons why oil treatment gives improvement on your local Ninco tracks. Surface abrasion (old, worn track vs new), club room conditions and the exact kind of tyres and treatment are all variables - that is why there is never a one size fits all solution to this kind of thing. As to the exact extent of your treatment only you can say, and already it appears not to be to the same extent as the OP.

I think it is fair to say there are a large number of rubber tyres that respond well to softening via a little oil whatever the scenario, but the notion that all tyres must be, or can be further conditioned, ballooned, mushroomed, bevelled or whatever the flavour of the club happens to be is what my post intends to advise caution on.

My entire experience of treated tyres on Ninco and classic scalextric track at best gives improved grip for 3-4 laps and then returns to 'normal' untreated levels, but in many cases degrades beyond 'normal' levels after that point. Admittedly, I have not raced on your track


regards
 

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WRP World Champ 2015/2016
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Indeed, very much a "Suck it and see" as to what works in each persons individual circumstances.

I did earlier in the post congratulate Leman1960 in stimulating discussion. As with all things slot-related (and no doubt RC cars/boats/planes, surfing, mountain biking, etc. ad nauseum) there will be point and counter point to every suggestion. Long may we continuing robust and wide ranging debate, but let's temper our responses a bit. We're only a bunch of overgrown kids having a bit of fun and wishing to share exper
 

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Slot King
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2,646 Posts
QUOTE (GregK @ 8 Sep 2016, 10:20) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Well you lot certainly know how to slap a guy down .......... do you ever wonder why this site is loosing newcomers who dare to post here.
Greg, I agree with you to an extend, but the OP was very assertive and very much in the tone of an expert quoting other experts. (We have now gone from "you must never" to "well I was being intentionally controversial"

I too read the thread from the beginning and saw the simplification of the issue. It was obvious someone was going to disagree. And if controversy was courted, then Gary's reply is in keeping (I was tempted myself).

QUOTE (GregK @ 8 Sep 2016, 10:20) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>It is certainly grim when people post their educational qualifications to ensure that that their willy is bigger than yours
Perhaps this is the comment that started it all
QUOTE (LeMan1960 @ 7 Sep 2016, 14:08) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>as an alumni of Cranfield University (who do much of the research for the 1:1 real world F1 teams) I'll ask the motoring science department if they'd be willing to run some high-speed camera and sensor tests for us.

For me the OP is still confusing, and I've read it 3 times! (I am a simple man) Amongst other things, it refers to the Slot It challenge and the use of P6 tyres
Am I wrong in thinking that the challenge is run with hand out F22s?

Funnily enough Martyn/Gary, we have started using hand out tyres and it is the only class where people do not complain about lack of grip
Whereas in the other classes (with treated tyres) the comment is frequently heard.

And now with my tongue firmly in my cheek: what the **** is a "super expert"
QUOTE (LeMan1960 @ 7 Sep 2016, 14:08) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>This is why experts - or, worse, a 'super expert'
Is he more expert than the expert? Or is he a "super guy" who just happen to be an expert?
But if the expert has a super expert more expert than an expert, how can he be an expert? Unless he is an expert at not being very expert? (I think you get my drift).

If this looks confusing to you, then you understand what the OP does to me. "Small tyres have more grip but let's use a wide tyre"??????

Have fun.

Joel

PS: "Inflating tyres with a hypodermic needle" I had to look twice at the date of the OP.
 

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Tony
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We'll be trying to inflate air hub tyres with a nitrogen air mix next and using tyre warmers


Tony
 

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In the original slot it challenge it was against the rules to bring needles with you to races.
I couldn't believe that people really did that, and maybe still do.
 

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Maybe the needles were for performance enhancing drugs?


The original post strikes me as a bit like all the other mysticism I've heard of tyre prep. Everyone does it differently and some do it slightly methodically (and others, like me, are fairly unscientific about it and I'm sure I've operated on placebo effect before now)...
 

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The original post also confused me, as in I still don't really understand what the actual tire preparation procedure is.

Even though I couldn't quite understand it, the tire preparation procedure was quite specific, and was presented with a fairly declarative - almost definitive - tone. And this topic is pinned in the top-most "Important Topics" section. So I can certainly understand why a discussion ensued. In fact, I thought that a discussion was encouraged in the original post. But when that discussion materialized, it was then discouraged.
 

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Interesting topic, read the OP skimmed over most of the other post.

Firts of all let me say that the willingness to share information and taking the time to do it is something I will always applaud.
So kudo's to Rick for staring the topic, I know from experience how much time a good write up can take.
And I agree with Gary there is some good info given on the how too part.
I have disagree with Gary's opinion that 1:1 tyre science is not applicable for slotrace slotcar rubber.
I.m.o. there's alot that can be learned, because the same basic principles apply, the trick is to see what and where they apply and to which extend they can be used to improve your slotcar.

Rick starts his post with a very good example to illustrate the relation between a contact surface and the amount lateral force it can resist without slipping.
The observation is correct...but with his first conlusion "less rubber on the track equals more grip" he immidiately cuts one very big corner which makes him loose grip on his own reasoning.

As Kevan mentioned early in the discussion "Pressure is a result of force and contact area"
So the correct conclusion here should have been: With the same force applied, the pressure on a small contact surface will be higher than that on a large contact area.

Had Rick repeated the same experiment pushing with increasing force, he would have noticed that there would be a point where an eraser on its edge would start to slide earlier than one laying flat on the surface. He would notice that the eraser on its edge would start to hop....like in "Ninco hop"

As with so many things in our dear hobby, its always about finding the right balance.

My contribution to the discussion are a couple of images that illustrate the effects different forces have on the contact patch of a tyre under load.
Interesting to see what the replies will be

with kind regards
Tamar

Force and the direction it is applied in

© farnorthracing.com
Rubber tyre on a Ninco track surface

© www.expeditionswest.com

[/TD] <td align= "left" valign="top">
Contact patch deformation under directional and lateral loads

image left: © 2.bp.blogspot.com, image right: © insideracingtechnology.com[/TD]
 

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Bob Chapman
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Very well explained Tamar, and great for those like me that are visualizers.
I think that the secret to testing all these things for yourself is the old rule, of only changing one thing at a time.
Example change the tires from wide ones to narrow ones . Test and record results.
If an improvement is found, try something else such as the track width, but only one axle at a time etc.
When changing tires and gearing and track width and doing it on different surfaces will not give one the true comparison they are searching for.
Agin , thanks for the great explanation.
Bob
 

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Old Engineer
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728 Posts
interesting discussion. I like the science bits.
two things to contribute, if I may:
on topic:
once I was racing 1/24 Eurosport on an unfamiliar track and the car was too tight. I ran out of .800 wide tires so I put on some .900's, thinking boy, was I in trouble. same compound and hub size.
but they actually loosened the thing up and the car became competitive. pressure per square inch at the track, I guess. I never forgot that.
and a distraction:
here's a definition that I like:
"An Expert is someone who has already made every mistake possible in their field." that would be me.
given that, maybe a Super Expert is someone who has become an expert across fields, or possibly one who has done So much damage that they have destroyed their equipment.
speedy
 

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The title of the thread is AN IDIOT'S GUIDE, In depth look at how to get the best from your tyres. The first post tries to combine both. Subsiquent posts have a mixture of simple content suitable for an idiots guide and more complicated content suitable for an in depth look. Also the OP has said that some of the posts giving an in depth look are too complicated for beginners to understand - well yes they are but if you start out with "in depth"in the title you can expect some in depth answers.

One important point that that quite rightly comes up several times is beware of "one size fits all"answers. Full size car tyres, erasers and slot car tyres are all rather different from one another. As what full size car tyres do and what the OP says erasers do is in conflict, it's unclear what a slot car tyre might do. "The stop watch doesn't lie"is an old saying that's worth repeating. If your theory says something is slower and the stop watch says it's faster then it's a pretty good bet that the theory not the stop watch needs fixing.
 

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Tony
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As 300SLR says, slot car tyres aren't a scale replica of 1:1 tyres and would work in a different way. What will work for someone will not work for others as we have different driving styles, this is getting too serious for me. THEY ARE ONLY BIG BOYS TOYS

Tony
 

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Gentlemen,
Agreed tyre dynamics is a complex subject, but my initial posting was never intended as a technical submission on tyre dynamics. It's actually about creating shape changing tyres. The simplified science bits are only there to give some contextual basis for discussing the little known benefits of shape changing tyres. Please don't read them as more than simplified 'supportive' material which is intended to explain how shape changer tyres help win races.

Let's start over. This post is about a technique that gives you a kind of "one size fits all" rubber compound racing tyre that works on all track surfaces.

When I say "one size fits all", I Do NOT mean you can have just one tyre that'll work in every possible circumstance. But this appears to be about as good as it gets in terms of adaptive tyres for slot cars.

Please note: this is not about simple 'tyre softening' techniques where oil is used to simply soften the outer surface of the tyre to give better grip; although the techniques are related. It is also not about 'tyre conditioners' which are applied immediately before a race, also to increase grip. What my posts were about is a process which causes separation in the layers of the rubber tread - so-called blistering - which results in a tyre which shape changes during a race.

As you know, a "tall" large-diameter tyre will run faster along the straights, as it effectively gives you higher gearing. Whereas a "squat" small diameter tyre gives an effectively lower gearing, and will be better for acelleration as well as fine throttle control. These are to diametrically opposed qualities we'd like to have in the rear tyres we fit to our cars.

Then there's the size of the contact patch, and whether it's wide or narrow. We could write a book on this one. But (for simplicity sake) let's agree that, in general, we want a big contact patch when braking, cornering, and during initial acelleration. Whereas, when we're running full-throttle along the straight (where we're not concerned with lateral grip) it'd be beneficial to reduce rolling-drag by having a smaller and narrower contact patch, as well as the aforementioned larger diameter tyres.

This is what the shape changing tyre gives you.

Creating such tyres is simple. Smear a small amount if 3-IN-ONE oil onto the treads of the tyres. Leave until next day, and repeat the oil application. This is the same thing we do to simply soften a tyre tread to increase its grip. But keep going, day after day, until the tread starts to rise up and form what's called a 'blister' right around the tyre. When the blister looks like the ones in the pictures l posted earlier, you'll have a set of shape changing tyres, and you're ready to race.

Tonight is race night, so Over-and-Out,
Rick
 

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@ LeMan1960 =

Sorry Dude!

My Tyre Truing Video hasn't got anything to do with your topic about *multi-stretch-fitting-tyres* project has it !

Mental note to myself = Always Read Exactly How The Topic Is Started & Running,


Let's call it a *Doh* moment on my side,


................................................................................
.................................................................................
......................

Maybe some kind of rubber tape could be developed, that you wrap around any hub, then keep wrapping it around to the desired diameter.
Make the tape wider than the rims.
If the tape was *Self-Welding*,or *sticky-back*, it may be possible to then trim off the excess width, then true & treat the *Tape-Tyres* usual method.

That's the best I can think of at the mo.

Very Best ~ Rick ....
...
 

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Kevs Racing Bits
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QUOTE (tamar.nelwan @ 8 Sep 2016, 22:09) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>As Kevan mentioned early in the discussion "Pressure is a result of force and contact area...So as tyres get wider the pressure on the road reduces for the same area"
Which you have shown really well here Tamar



...Thanks for the great extra info you posted
 
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