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Discussion Starter · #21 ·
Hi Everyone,

Íve just spoken to John and he will fix any bug on the exit flipper polarity and add a configuration box for the exit flipper, ie gate time, delay, polarity swap etc. Might be a week or so.

Rick
 
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Hi

long story short, what will I gain from running lb V6 and flashing to Ultima
question.gif
entry flippers only on my track and ac is still to be fitted, pearl still to be tried.

As John is about dare I say it............adjustable timeout
mellow.png
 

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Discussion Starter · #25 ·
Hi
long story short, what will I gain from running lb V6 and flashing to Ultima
question.gif
entry flippers only on my track and ac is still to be fitted, pearl still to be tried.

As John is about dare I say it............adjustable timeout
mellow.png
LB6 is not compatible. You could use Ultima on single flippers.
What do you get? Anti collision and a programmable race line. The difference is
a) each driver has a choice to use it or not
b) each driver can have their own unique race line
c) each driver can vary the race live as they go around.

Thats why its called Ultima😊
 

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Discussion Starter · #27 ·
Hi
long story short, what will I gain from running lb V6 and flashing to Ultima
question.gif
entry flippers only on my track and ac is still to be fitted, pearl still to be tried.

As John is about dare I say it............adjustable timeout
mellow.png
LB6 is not compatible. You could use Ultima on single flippers.
What do you get? Anti collision and a programmable race line. The difference is
a) each driver has a choice to use it or not
b) each driver can have their own unique race line
c) each driver can vary the race live as they go around.

Thats why its called Ultima😊
 

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Rick,

It is a bit difficult to make you understand my issues and I hope that you read it thoroughly before you answer.

First of all let's start with the statement that I did not customize Ultima like you suggest. I tried to explain that I do not use Ultima because it does not work. You might call it a glitch but when you launch a new feature called Ultima that promises to power both entry and exit flippers, but does not energize that exit flipper, then it simply does not work. The picture (post#20) shows the track at this present-day with the original design of combining PEARL and AC before Ultima (let's call it Bu).

Because of this specific feature (PEARL & AC) I decided to invest €200 for development of the system and become an early adaptor way back in 2009? My starting order contained 32 Lainbrains, 4 controllers, 10 decoders and 1 dongle, almost €2.500 worth of business! To my knowledge I am the only Scorpius user with the maximum amount of 32 LB's built in a MDF racing line track. So I believe I must be an expert user in this territory.

Every now and then a car misses a LB Led, or should it be that a LB misses a car? In fact I can't determine which one is the right description but if a car does not change lanes on its PEARL path like it's done 100 laps before it can be described like a car misses a LB. Since day 1 I install al of my LC sensors besides the guide flag. I even made a drilling template that fits in the guideflag hole to determine the exact 12mm position to drill…..

The 6 led's in the picture are required to operate PEARL and AC Bu. It might look way to complex, but there's guy way down under that invented and recommended it Bu. For a lane change to work, and AC ticked on in the LB setup program a car needs to pass an AC beacon will it activate a lane change at the LC beacon. In the scenario where an exit flipper is very close to the next entry flipper the system needs two LC led's for two reasons. 1; There needs to be enough distance between the LC led and the tip of the entry flipper for the system to react in time to a lane change. 2; the beam, or range of the transmitter and receiver led's are not big enough to see each other when they are not lined up correctly. Before Ultima (present) both functions operate for a x period of time or laps. This x period of time can be 1 minute, 4 laps or 10 laps. Signs of mishaps in the functionality are at random lane changes or no lane changing at all. Powering down the LB's for 5 secs and starting them up again gives full functionality back for another x period of time.

On several occasions on the Slotforum and by PM I asked you if Ultima could use more than 1 LC beacon for the reasons I explained above and in the potst on SF and PM. You never gave me an answer. By the way you kept avoiding to answer the question directly I could have guessed the answer…….

Posted 03 March 2016 - 02:47 PM

Please don't Rick. I do race a lot without the use of my PC, just a few laps without starting up the old WIN7 PC...

I am also not waiting for goodies like KERS, tyre wear and changing weather conditions, they are way to artifical for me. Just leave the communciation like it is, straight from the controller to the car like it was ment to be.

Instead of these goodies I would like you to invest in upgrading the existing tools. It would be great to store throttle curves and upload them from a file to your controller. The other way around should be awesome aswell so you could retrieve a throttle curve from one controller and upload it to another one. The much requested adjustable timeout and vibrofunctions for the controller are high on my list aswell. Another point will be the glitch that is still in the LB8.0 or 8.1 firmware, just try to fix that first before other functions are added. Upgrading to Ultima means I have to rewire 32 LB's because using
PEARL and AC together is the way my track is designed. I have tested it on two LB's but I am not confinced it works like it should be working. On a lot of my LB's I have installed more thean one LC led because I want to change lanes from the best lane and the adjecent lane. Although I have asked you twice you never answered this important question for me. Powering the exit flipper does'nt work like you descriped, It does'nt change back in the default polarity but stays like it was lastly activated. Cars entering on that line (with the AC led in it) find a exit flipper with the wrong polarity. The right polatrity is needed because on an best lane track the LC led for the next entry flipper is besides the exit flipper of the first LC.
If you use this AC led for activating the exit flipper the problem should be solved.

I am just a bit anxious to reboot all of my 32 LB's because they sometimes just freeze.... and I really do not know if the changes are working or are for the better. Changing the rules during a game makes the game less attractive to play....
Changing communications, LB wiring changes the way this game was initially played and it could become less attractive at this moment...

Regards Marc
For the last time a will ask you again to implement the feauture in Ultima to use more than 1 LC an/or AC beacon if required. Simply because it's mandatory for my track to operate with the feature that made me decide to invest in Scorpius. In the Bu era you simply put the LED's in series and it worked. I do not have to explain again that I installed 26 LB's on the racing line following the recommended specs and set-up in a wooden track that can not be altered or rebuild in a one nights eve. It's a bit like you tell an ice hockey team that is ready to play in the Olympics, invested a lot of practice time and money in their equipment, that you changed the rules and they are playing field hockey instead………..

Regards Marc
 

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Hi Marc,

Sometimes also I may miss to reply to someone. If this has happened I apologise but I think most people who know me know I never ignore anyone.

All my diagrams include the LC and AC beacons before the entry flipper. Yours does not. Your diagram looks nothing like any diagram I have ever released.

I do not understand your method. Frankly I'm confused. And you say you haven't customised it but then say you have because it "doesn't work". Again I'm confused. Either way I'm sure I wouldn't have agreed to any custom ideas because I cannot personally see how it can work. Yes you are an early adaptor and invested well agreed, youir business is appreciated and I LOVE your track. but that has no bearing on this issue. I'm sorry you don't want KERS etc but some do.

Lets look at my point of view. Commonsense told me to develop and test both functions separately. Why? Because its logical, and because I wanted the user to be able to chose either or both functions. In the meantime I'm developing the RMS and lots of other changes. It doesn't happen overnight. Its hard for any project manager to know future issues or problems sometimes until you arrive there. No one has done this before, no one to copy, nothing to google.

So one day I ask John to look at the possibility of combining AC and PEARL. After some firmware versions it becomes obvious it cannot work and I need an extra LED code. John informs me to do that I need a bigger microprocessor, an additional LED driver and a total rebuild. Second issue all 32 of your LBs become REDUNDANT. Is that something you want, or anyone?

Lets look at Carrera, dumped their system around 2009? and made everyones system redundant (Pro-X).......unless you lived in Germany where they gave free upgrades. Ninco disappear. SCX I hear the same. Scalextrics first powerbase 5 firmware versions, second powerbase C7042 had glitches. Firmware upgrade needed. I think theyre up to version "I" with their car chip. The list goes on.

Lets look at Scorpius. Released July 1st 2011, 6 and 1/2 years ago. No hardware changes (We only added SSD and Ninco compatibility back in around 2013, doesnt affect anyone).

Every piece of hardware was so futureproof and well designed every investment made by any Scorpius user is still holds its value. Rare? You betya.

So back to the dilemma. How to combine AC and PEARL together using what we have. Was I a dead end? Either make a NEW LB or announce that AC and PEARL cannot be combined. How would you have felt? Either choice would not be acceptable.

One day it suddenly occurred to me how to achieve this. It took me years almost before it dawned on me.

The exit flipper firmware is being fixed. But now you need to change the LEDs to spec and its going to be time consuming. You want me to make new LB for your track only? I also explained that the LB only has 2 LED drivers, even though it has 4 LEDS. I explained that an extra LED was not possible without a total remanufacture and then redundancy. Maybe you missed those posts.

John has been overseas on some big contracts and simply was not available. He is now however.

Ultima does not work only in your rare situation. From what I understand it is because you are placing the LC beacon for the next LC beside the flipper. It works for me and as documented for Shift also. If a car passes a flipper of wrong polarity it simply restarts a few seconds later. The Lane Brain liven flipper driver simply cuts out and is reset the next time a car passes. The cars motor is stopped only in the milliseconds and momentum simply carries it through. Does this make sense?

If so you cannot say it does not work. By the time the car has reached the exit flipper AC and PEARL have both been successfully carried out. Of course if you place the LED beside the exit flipper (I never knew you were doing this and none of my diagrams were designed for such, sorry.

So here I offer a simple solution. just 2 LEDs, not 6. You would have simply needed to push the other 4 LEDs through the table, because lets face it the AC and LC LED placement (The LC LED before the flipper, and the AC LED adjacent the LC LED) has always been identical. Your diagram is not like this.

Can I make an extra LC LED as you request? Sorry I cant, if I could I would. If I could it would be spaghetti, too many wires, LEDs and install. You see I think you think its purely a firmware upgrade needed, but its a hardware rebuild you are asking for, wether you realise or not. Again I did announce this over 18 months ago about the amount of LED drivers etc.. So I'm not sure why you're requesting something I'' already stated cant be done. Your only issue now is you do not wish to move the LEDs. I can understand this. But that is the only solution. You must wire it exactly as Ultima is designed or I simply and sadly not help you.

Rick
 

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Hi Rick,

All my diagrams include the LC and AC beacons before the entry flipper. Yours does not. Your diagram looks nothing like any diagram I have ever released.
Mine are before the entry flipper aswell. The beacons shown are for LB#25. The entry flipper is just on the right side of the picture. All your diagrams are on straights and only show one LC section. Mine are in corners and because they are situated close together the beacon sections can be on the entry and exit flipper of a former LC.

I do not understand your method. Frankly I'm confused. And you say you haven't customised it but then say you have because it "doesn't work". Again I'm confused. Either way I'm sure I wouldn't have agreed to any custom ideas because I cannot personally see how it can work.
I am using the "adding additional LED's on the Lainbrain" section of the Scorpius Installation guide version 2.1, page 17 of 21. It describes how to put additional led's in series so sliding cars can be detected aswell. Altough my cars are not sliding I figured out that that sliding car could be a car in the racing line section that crosses from lane 1 to 2 on a track. In fact I needed this configuration for my track to work and because it worked there was never a question of it was intended to work like this. You might be confused because you may not have known about this functionallity because it might never have crossed your mind.

The exit flipper firmware is being fixed. But now you need to change the LEDs to spec and its going to be time consuming. You want me to make new LB for your track only? I also explained that the LB only has 2 LED drivers, even though it has 4 LEDS. I explained that an extra LED was not possible without a total remanufacture and then redundancy. Maybe you missed those posts.
Like you I had to invent and design my track and how to make the best of use of the scorpius equipment. I came across a lot of challenges how to make things work. If a LB with the existing drivers and microprocessor can power up to 2 LC and 2 AC beacons and even more LED's in series (6 LED's on many of my LB's) I do not understand why it cannot power 2 LC led's in series and only 1 AC in the Ultima version. In practise the Ultima configuration receives way less information and pulses than the LB versions up til 8.0 because there is only 1 LED (LC or AC) per lane. The AC LED simply prevents or cuts the LC signal if a car passes. But if Jon says so, I ll have to trust on his expertise.

I might have missed those posts and I really do not know where they are posted. They were certainly not posted anywhere near my explicit inquiries or on my PM about the subject. I really do not want you to design a LB esspecially for me, i just want the system to be as perfect as possible for my track and other scorpius users that might face the same issues as I am. And in my opinion its just adding an extra LC led in series which is possible in the other than Ultimate firmware versions. Again I trust on Jon's expertise.

If so you cannot say it does not work. By the time the car has reached the exit flipper AC and PEARL have both been successfully carried out. Of course if you place the LED beside the exit flipper (I never knew you were doing this and none of my diagrams were designed for such, sorry.
I gues I was thinking more out of the box than you did. And forgive me for being bold but the tracks I have seen from you (SSD digital and you wooden 5 or 6 laner) are not designed as a racing line track and have their LC's on the straights.

So here I offer a simple solution. just 2 LEDs, not 6. You would have simply needed to push the other 4 LEDs through the table, because lets face it the AC and LC LED placement (The LC LED before the flipper, and the AC LED adjacent the LC LED) has always been identical. Your diagram is not like this.
My diagram is exactly like it should be for a lower dan LV 8.0 version, Sadly pushing the redundant LED's through the table does not work because they need to be removed voor Ultima to work....

Can I make an extra LC LED as you request? Sorry I cant, if I could I would. If I could it would be spaghetti, too many wires, LEDs and install. You see I think you think its purely a firmware upgrade needed, but its a hardware rebuild you are asking for, wether you realise or not. Again I did announce this over 18 months ago about the amount of LED drivers etc.. So I'm not sure why you're requesting something I'' already stated cant be done. Your only issue now is you do not wish to move the LEDs. I can understand this. But that is the only solution. You must wire it exactly as Ultima is designed or I simply and sadly not help you.
Finally a clear and direct answer to my question. Your way to many wires argument is not valid cause I only asked for one extra LC led in series which ads approximatly 2 cm's of extra wire between the LED's.

The Ultima solution came out of knowwhere in a system where users are suppost to give their feedback on future functions. To be developed or already introduced. I tested it, gave you some remarks about the functionality I preferred and I also mentioned the fault in the exit flipper polarity. On the direct questions you did not give me direct answers and now you put the blaim on me for coming back on an announcement you did 18 months ago. It feels like you have ticked of your PEARL and AC box a long time ago without solving the exit flipper issue and it therefore went of your radar. It might be my mistake not asking you again about my prefered answers and solution, but I had made several attempts and like I wrote before, my entousiasm for the Scorpius system declined....

I have to reconsider how I can make Ultima work be repostioning the LC leds without coming to close to the tip of the entry flipper, the loss of being able to change lanes at every LC from the racing line or the adjecent lane, or put some Scorpius equipement on the second hand market. Before I make any descison you can sent the Ultima LB fix to [email protected]

Regards Marc
 

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Hi Marc,

If you want a duplication of any LED you can certainly copy by using parallel OR series wiring. If that would make your idea work (once the exit flipper polarity is addressed you can certainly do that. If it doesn't work still I'm not surprised as the Ultima firmware clearly has a massively different set up to what you have used.

The situation as I see it and why you are threatening to sell your equipment if I can not customise a solution for you and mentioning "gimmicks" etc is the fact you need to do modify your existing nice install. (Please realise calling my system and any proposed ideas gimmicky is a concern to me and the team who spend months and years devoting their time to the project.)

You are aware a bug fix is coming but you still aren't happy. This is a concern to me because I strive to make my customers happy. I'm the sort of person I do not react to emotion while trying to fix a problem. Instead my focus is directly on fixing the problem. The main issue now is simply you do not wish to reconfigure the LEDs. Its not a huge job as explained.

Marc I have explained all you need to do is simply leave the other 3 or 4 LEDs in but push below the table so the car cannot detect. No soldering or rewiring should be necessary. Above however you debate this. You say you have the LC and AC beacons before the flipper. If this is true then leave them there and remove the others. I have already started the glitch will be fixed. If you want to sell your system we will be sad to see you go but Ive done my best. I have even offered to get you the first fix version. Not sure what else I can do. I look forward to the bug fix and you completing and showcasing your amazing (best perhaps?) track.

Rick
 

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Hi guys,

sorry for joining this discussion. I am a Scorpius user for a long time, and it's hard for me follow this discussion. I did not test Ultima so far, but I think I understand a bit of the system.

As far as I know, there should be now problem, except the polarity issue of the exit flipper, which will hopefully be fixed soon. I think, fixing this issue is crucial, but Rick stated, it will be fixed. So I go from there.

All explanations are based on the pic attached.

Thoughts:

  • Basic assumption: The LEDs shown on the original pic of Wiggie are solely for SLC25.
  • According to the pic: LEDs marked green are needed. LEDs crossed out in red are not necessary.
  • Rick just told us, that we still should be able to wire two LEDs in parallel or in sequence as we did before ULTIMA.
  • So: Double "LC Leds lane 1" should be no problem.
  • "AC Led lane 1" is not needed any more, due to ULTIMA. This is good. I never understood the necessity of this additional LED.
    Rick: Do we need to shortcut this or just remove?
  • "AC led lane 2 to 1" is not needed on your track, Wiggie: If a driver decided to go from L2 to L1, there will be no chance of a collision, if another driver decides to change to L2 on SLC 25.
    Imho, this is not needed any more, due to the new behaviour of ULTIMA and the statement above.
  • "LC LED Lane 2" is not needed any more, due to ULTIMA.
    Ric, again: Do we need to shortcut this or just remove?

I hope this helps and I am looking forward to ULTIMA with the fixed exit flipper polarity issue.

Cheers,

Diegu
 

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I seriously confused 24 and 25 my fault, regardless it cannot work. And the LED set up is still based on old days prior to Ultimas actual release and diagrams released the same week.
Dieter your post is correct thanks. To answer your questions you just need the 2 LEDs

Lets get the new version out there and move forward

Wiggle you could have also moved the LED back 50 mm, near live braid. You could have used the delay configuration to compensate. You still could. Just an afterthought.
 

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Discussion Starter · #34 ·
Hi Guys
Just an update. My apologies to all especially Marc, on the glitch fix. Being the holiday silly season John has been unavailable.

Rick
 
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Hi

cool stuff Rick
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2018 is off to a flyer for Scorpius,new srms and car issue now sorted, great to have a proper engineer on board I'm sure the polarity fix won't take him long
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