I'm building a Group 12 Saloon which has no centre section except for a piano wire spine. I am putting a sliding weight on the spine which will have about 45mm of movement with a damper at each end. The theory behind this is that under acceleration the weight goes towards the back wheels to improve traction. Under braking the weight will move forward to give more weight to the front to keep the guide in the slot. I will experiment with the amount of weight so it won't lift the front or loosen the back end. Well That's the theory.
Ultimate tuning - in theory
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I didn't realize we were talking 1/24 as well.
Given the money, thats a no brainer....A Nick De Wachter built Agent Smith chassis with one of his detailed carbon fibre LMP bodies. Doesn't get any better, these are the pinnacle of hard body racing technology with a mixture of brass and carbon fibre components coupled with front and rear suspension.
I was fortunate enough to demo drive the next best thing at the Australian Model Car Nationals last month. Jan Roestorf's Red Roo chassis (manufactured by NDW) but it had a lexen body so doesn't count here. Still, by far the nicest car I've ever driven
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The Red Roo
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- Cam
Given the money, thats a no brainer....A Nick De Wachter built Agent Smith chassis with one of his detailed carbon fibre LMP bodies. Doesn't get any better, these are the pinnacle of hard body racing technology with a mixture of brass and carbon fibre components coupled with front and rear suspension.
I was fortunate enough to demo drive the next best thing at the Australian Model Car Nationals last month. Jan Roestorf's Red Roo chassis (manufactured by NDW) but it had a lexen body so doesn't count here. Still, by far the nicest car I've ever driven
The Red Roo
- Cam
The original question was
QUOTE (slotcarscrapyard @ 10 Jul 2012, 13:14) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>..........................Any type of car/chassis/motor (as long as its hard body ie, scalextric, ninco carrera etc)...............
That's a BIG restriction.
If we start thinking outside that box, there is no problem producing a vastly quicker and better handling car.
1/24 wing cars are the fastest slot cars around a track by a long way, but they don't meet slotcarscrapyard's "as long as its hard body" requirement.
QUOTE (slotcarscrapyard @ 10 Jul 2012, 13:14) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>..........................Any type of car/chassis/motor (as long as its hard body ie, scalextric, ninco carrera etc)...............
That's a BIG restriction.
If we start thinking outside that box, there is no problem producing a vastly quicker and better handling car.
1/24 wing cars are the fastest slot cars around a track by a long way, but they don't meet slotcarscrapyard's "as long as its hard body" requirement.
Like a lot the idea behind Gary Fletchers fly wheel powered slot car. Very much KERS for slot cars with the added benefit of the contra rotation.
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Would love to see any more pictues or write ups that people have? Was the fly wheel allowed to be spun up before the race started?
So as this is a no holds barred class I suspect there are a number of electronic aids that could be added. An electronic version of the KERS, overvoltage for additional acceleration, reverse voltage for additional braking. Thats the simple stuff before we get started with on board traction control.
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I suspect the challenge with any extra is that the gain more than offsets the weight penalty and the increased opportunity for a failure.
Rich
So as this is a no holds barred class I suspect there are a number of electronic aids that could be added. An electronic version of the KERS, overvoltage for additional acceleration, reverse voltage for additional braking. Thats the simple stuff before we get started with on board traction control.
Rich
iI like this thread, we,re getting some where now. what about a super slo mo camera to see exactly how the chassis is behaving and why, so it can be improved upon. Who said a wing car has to have a lexan body!. to meet the hardbody criteria how about a thin resin or light weight moulded plastic wing car shell with all the dams and air controll devices allready moulded in, moneys no object . we gotta get the blinkers off here. john
Apparently the flywheel on the Gary Fletcher car was driven off the back axle at above motor speed. The purpose is said to be the extra gyroscopic effect.
Overvoltage for additional acceleration, reverse voltage for additional braking is an interesting idea.
Slot car motors are readily available that give far more power than any hard body slot car can use.
The quicker soft bodied slot cars are normally driven with reduced brakes - modern motors and gear ratios produce far more braking than is wanted if run on full dynamic braking.
Overvoltage for additional acceleration, reverse voltage for additional braking is an interesting idea.
Slot car motors are readily available that give far more power than any hard body slot car can use.
The quicker soft bodied slot cars are normally driven with reduced brakes - modern motors and gear ratios produce far more braking than is wanted if run on full dynamic braking.
nice idea Big T, have you thought about useing an oblong piece of lead with 1/32 or smaller stringers either side running through the lead. to keep the C/G nice and low. Camber you could use the NDW chassis with one of his carbon fibre bodies, i think that would be classed as a hardbody 300 your bang on the money with the contra rotating flywheel. they use that on bikes to stop the see saw effect of the chassis under breaking and acceration. in fact its given me the basis for a version i want to build and try. and another idea is to have duall slipper type clutches on both independant back wheels no friction material just tapered blocks[teeth] held together with a light sping. a double diff where the slower inside wheel on a bend allows the sprung plate to ride over the notches, and engagage again after the bend. john
QUOTE (stoner @ 13 Jul 2012, 07:18) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>to meet the hardbody criteria how about a thin resin or light weight moulded plastic wing car shell with all the dams and air controll devices allready moulded in
The "regs" say (as long as its hard body ie, scalextric, ninco carrera etc) which to me says it has to be a standard off the shelf body? So I think we are restricted to chassis, motor, tyres, controller? If so the body is probably the major performance limiting feature?
Its so long since I scratch built that I am well out of touch with what is possible these Days, but 300SLR post implies that without any "help" motors and braking are more than any chassis or driver can take?
This to me says that once we have the lightest best handling chassis possible the effort needs to go into driver aids of some sort to enable a car with a larger motor and better brakes to actually be driven?
So that implies, traction control, antilock brakes, and perhaps some sort of electronic stability package?
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Rich
The "regs" say (as long as its hard body ie, scalextric, ninco carrera etc) which to me says it has to be a standard off the shelf body? So I think we are restricted to chassis, motor, tyres, controller? If so the body is probably the major performance limiting feature?
Its so long since I scratch built that I am well out of touch with what is possible these Days, but 300SLR post implies that without any "help" motors and braking are more than any chassis or driver can take?
This to me says that once we have the lightest best handling chassis possible the effort needs to go into driver aids of some sort to enable a car with a larger motor and better brakes to actually be driven?
So that implies, traction control, antilock brakes, and perhaps some sort of electronic stability package?
Rich
being a no holds money unlimited class. produce a run of bodies, any thing. wing cars, stetched and flattend downforce bodies, thingies, it can be an altered replica or any shape you can think of. i dont think where talking about true scale replica,s here. perhaps the topic starter Slotcarscrapyard could jump in here and clarify his thinking on bodies. john
Sounds like I'd better clarify what I was saying.
The more powerful slot car motors are fully usable with a well sorted metal chassis and suitable vac formed body.
The drivers know how to make full use of that performance (and great fun it is too!)
That is a lot more power than any hardbody car I've ever seen can take.
So even if hardbody cars/ chassis could be made to work dramatically better than they do at present, all the power they need is already available in off the shelf slot car motors.
It's plain to see just how much more performance has been gained using chassis development and tuning rather than electronics on the "soft bodied" cars. So it seems to me the best way to making hardbody cars go better lies with chassis development and tuning rather than electronics. Of course that's just an opinion, it's open to others to prove me wrong if they can make hardbody cars go better by using electronics.
The more powerful slot car motors are fully usable with a well sorted metal chassis and suitable vac formed body.
The drivers know how to make full use of that performance (and great fun it is too!)
That is a lot more power than any hardbody car I've ever seen can take.
So even if hardbody cars/ chassis could be made to work dramatically better than they do at present, all the power they need is already available in off the shelf slot car motors.
It's plain to see just how much more performance has been gained using chassis development and tuning rather than electronics on the "soft bodied" cars. So it seems to me the best way to making hardbody cars go better lies with chassis development and tuning rather than electronics. Of course that's just an opinion, it's open to others to prove me wrong if they can make hardbody cars go better by using electronics.
QUOTE (300SLR @ 13 Jul 2012, 08:35) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>It's plain to see just how much more performance has been gained using chassis development and tuning rather than electronics on the "soft bodied" cars. So it seems to me the best way to making hardbody cars go better lies with chassis development and tuning rather than electronics. Of course that's just an opinion, it's open to others to prove me wrong if they can make hardbody cars go better by using electronics.
300SLR I actually agree with you.
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But as this was a "no holds or money barred class" was trying to look beyond the point where the absolute best has been got from the chassis, tyre, motor design & setup.
So then working on the assumption that as this is a hardbodied car and that motors would be available that were too much for it or the driver to handle, merely proposing a fly by wire approach to enable the car & driver to cope.
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Could it work? Probably except that I suspect noone is going to bother to spend the time & money finding out. Also in the real slot world the regs would always ban such things...
Rich
300SLR I actually agree with you.
So then working on the assumption that as this is a hardbodied car and that motors would be available that were too much for it or the driver to handle, merely proposing a fly by wire approach to enable the car & driver to cope.
Could it work? Probably except that I suspect noone is going to bother to spend the time & money finding out. Also in the real slot world the regs would always ban such things...
Rich
reverse voltage applied to brake slot cars was banned in the 1960s. i do think fly by wire systems are on the right path, just as in 1-1 systems that make an undriveable car sweet as a nut the controllers are the equivelent of ECUs so development of these are the future. john
Have to say I find it amusing that both in the 1:1 & scale racing world, cost efective ways of improving perfornace are banned. Traction control or reverse voltage brakes. Thus forcing teams to spend inordinatly large amounts of money on items that are less effective but "within the rules". Incredibly complex wing structures or Electronic controllers.
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This no holds barred class would be more interesting if there was a minimum weight limit, somthing above that which is achieveable with standard materials. Thus allowing some inovation without there being an an immediate weight penalty.
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Rich
This no holds barred class would be more interesting if there was a minimum weight limit, somthing above that which is achieveable with standard materials. Thus allowing some inovation without there being an an immediate weight penalty.
Rich
For sure there are examples in the 1:1 racing world of teams spending inordinately large amounts to get round the rules.
In slot racing I'm not so sure.
For example "choke" adjustments on controllers (what some controller makers rather misleadingly call traction control) has been around for years, it is cheap and easy to make yourself.
For example brake adjustments on controllers have also been around for decades, it is cheap and easy to make yourself. As mentioned earlier, on modern quicker cars the natural level of full dynamic braking is more than you want, which is why the guys who know what they are doing usually run on reduced brakes.
Reverse voltage applied to brake slot cars was banned in the 1960 when most slot car motors had very feeble magnets and hence a lack of brakes. One of those legacies in the rule book banning something nobody going quickly these days would want to do anyway.
Both "choke" and brake adjustments were in widespread use on ordinary resistance controllers long before electronic controllers came into general use. Indeed they were often made a separate plug in boxes that could be used on any controller.
In slot racing I'm not so sure.
For example "choke" adjustments on controllers (what some controller makers rather misleadingly call traction control) has been around for years, it is cheap and easy to make yourself.
For example brake adjustments on controllers have also been around for decades, it is cheap and easy to make yourself. As mentioned earlier, on modern quicker cars the natural level of full dynamic braking is more than you want, which is why the guys who know what they are doing usually run on reduced brakes.
Reverse voltage applied to brake slot cars was banned in the 1960 when most slot car motors had very feeble magnets and hence a lack of brakes. One of those legacies in the rule book banning something nobody going quickly these days would want to do anyway.
Both "choke" and brake adjustments were in widespread use on ordinary resistance controllers long before electronic controllers came into general use. Indeed they were often made a separate plug in boxes that could be used on any controller.
i,ve no doubt that they,ve got featherweigt micro sensors now, so plugging a controller into an all singing and dancing ECU via laptop with variable parameters is the way forward. and the price wont be high when a taiwan or chinese manufacturer decides theres a fairly big niche market for these things. the controllers would be basic its the ECU that would do the work. john
OK as you all know I love my electronics
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and I suspect in slot racing as in 1:1 the very best drivers can drive very well without electronic aids, some may even be better without them. However for us mere mortals capable of occasionally putting in a blinding lap but let down by lack of ability or consistancy I suspect they would make a tremendous difference.
For instance most electronc systems are not going to help you much if you brake to late, however if you get on the power early then there is a lot they can do to help. So a slot car system that detects wheel slip or lateral G and limits the power accordingly is not going to do much for the driver that gets it right every corner every lap, however for the rest of us, preventing a few deslots whilst allowing you to drive aggressively it's likely to be a real benefit.
Rich
For instance most electronc systems are not going to help you much if you brake to late, however if you get on the power early then there is a lot they can do to help. So a slot car system that detects wheel slip or lateral G and limits the power accordingly is not going to do much for the driver that gets it right every corner every lap, however for the rest of us, preventing a few deslots whilst allowing you to drive aggressively it's likely to be a real benefit.
Rich
So true. How else do you think this R35 GT-R road car weighing 3828Lbs
Manages to go round Goodwood 4 Seconds faster than this Aston Martin V8 N24/GT4 weighing 2976Lbs?
Cos it's not the driver.
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Rich
Manages to go round Goodwood 4 Seconds faster than this Aston Martin V8 N24/GT4 weighing 2976Lbs?
Cos it's not the driver.
Rich
And taking the electronic driver aids to its logical extreme, make the electronics do all the driving so as to lap the circuit more consistently quickly than a human driver could?
I have seen a couple of systems designed by guys who claim that one day they will do just that. They conceded they had a long way to go to meet that goal, and last time I saw their systems they had yet to match the pace of a competent human beginner. Hard to say how far that could go given enough development resource. Maybe some of us would prefer to drive a slot car rather than watch it wizzing round all by itself?
I have seen a couple of systems designed by guys who claim that one day they will do just that. They conceded they had a long way to go to meet that goal, and last time I saw their systems they had yet to match the pace of a competent human beginner. Hard to say how far that could go given enough development resource. Maybe some of us would prefer to drive a slot car rather than watch it wizzing round all by itself?
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