[Mr Modifier]

Calling all attendees of the Pantyffynnon Slot Car Club,

At tonight's club night Alan suggested it might be time to have a second class of cars. This is good from my point of view - because it means my sets of cars will take less of a bashing!

We already run GTs.

So what do we want as a second class?

Somebody mentioned F1 but I agree with Martyn's observation that the delicate front and rear wings and digital racing don't mix.

I am personally in favour of American Muscle or something similar. This could include the new Scalextric Holdens (not American but certainly muscle cars).

Narrowing this down further - do we want to go vintage muscle - Camaros, Mustangs, Gran Torino, Holden Torano and Chargers from the 60's and 70's? Or do we go modern muscle (Mustang GT500, new shape Camaro etc.)?

Or are we OK with mixing vintages (let's face it the performance on the track should be the same)?

Do we go racing liveries or road liveries? Would the General Lee count in either?

There are quite a few DPR cars that fit the bill (from Scalextric and Pioneer) and a few that are not DPR for those who are happy to fit the in-car chip. I would be happy to accept any car from Scalextric, Pioneer, SCX and AutoArt (the AutoArts and SCX's would need some work and the in-car chip fitted but are a cheaper alternative as the AutoArts are about £18 on Ebay at the moment). SCX is the most dodgy because of the RX42/RX42B motor although you can get adaptors to replace an RX42/RX42B with a Scalextric Mabuchi.

ALTERNATIVELY we could go RallyCross - this will involve getting a rally car and taking out the windows, removing bumpers, spotlights and wing mirrors and painting over the headlights and rear lights. Any car that has run in any of the national rallycross events at any time would be acceptable providing they are from Scalextric, SCX, AutoArt or Team Slot. I think we should specifically ban any car from NSR, Sloter, Spirit and Ninco as they are just too fast and this is not a wallet war.

Whatever we choose - I will create a software profile in SSDC for each car so if somebody buys a car that is simply too fast I will tweak it down - the aim being to get the fastest lap times achievable with every car as closely matched as possible (who wants to volunteer to be our Stig?!?)

Don't all rush out and buy cars - give it some thought and let's discuss next week. There may be some deals we can do and if we club together there is the possibility of getting some discounts (for example if we buy 6 chips they work out at a tenner each rather than £13 bought singly).

I may also have some suitable cars at trade prices depending on what we settle on.

SO - the question is - what shall we race?

Once we settle on a class - let me know what it is you are proposing to buy and we can take a collective view on whether we think it will all hang together.

 

[Martyn_]

I like the idea of muscle cars or rallycross myself. I'd like to see rounds alternate with mag and magless.

I'd personally like to see it agreed that the RX42/B can be replaced with a better spec motor (even if we all agree on a scaleauto can, for example) - although we could have TWO rally cross classes, 4WD and 2WD - accurate to the actual cars rally crossed.

In the hair dressers car club we've got a guy who was crew for Martin Schenker (or Schanker - can never remember which was the guitarist and which was the racer!). He'd be a good arbiter.

 

[Mr Modifier]

Hi Snurfen,

I can't see the point on agreeing a motor that is not in any of the main makes. The standard Scalextric Mabuchi is designed so the APB with twin transformers can easily cope with 6 cars. As Scalextric cars are an acceptable brand for the Muscle or RallyCross cars I suggest we settle on the standard Scalextric Mabuchi as an acceptable replacement for RX42/RX42B. I picked up 5 of these motors off the bay for £15 all in.

I am sure we will get some significant power variations across makes of cars which is why I am proposing profiling cars in SSDC. I may even sign the motors with a marker to stop motor substitution post-calibration if we get some sudden unexplained performance boosts during the season

Does anybody know if the Pioneer cars are significantly different to Scalextric cars in terms of motor performance?

 

[Martyn_]

Your missing my point Rich - I'm now a bit confused about your statement that RXs were dodgy - did you mean underpowered or unreliable? The scaleauto yellow short cans are a good little motor of similar performance to mabuchis - it's just that I always think of the mabuchi as a horrible little buzzer. The scaleautos are also closed can and can be sealed appropriately.

Six of the yellow shortcans would be easily handled by the APB. As for performance, there are several DIY tachos out there for toy car motors - may be an idea and a fun little project for someone who likes soldering and fiddling. Anyone around Ammanford way spring to mind?

 

[montoya1]

I always like to look at any threads where 'new' classes are discussed, on the basis one can never tell when an idea might work in HO, but this interested me:

QUOTE If somebody buys a car that is simply too fast I will tweak it down

Surely if the list of allowed cars is done well, anything 'too fast' would be down to the skill of the driver, and his/her tuning skills and/or car selection? A tweak down would therefore be grossly unfair, and disincentivising.

There does seem to be a lot of thought given in our hobby along the lines of what to do about the ''problem'' of people being ''too fast''.

 

[Mr Modifier]

QUOTE (snurfen @ 3 Aug 2012, 15:25) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Your missing my point Rich - I'm now a bit confused about your statement that RXs were dodgy - did you mean underpowered or unreliable? The scaleauto yellow short cans are a good little motor of similar performance to mabuchis - it's just that I always think of the mabuchi as a horrible little buzzer. The scaleautos are also closed can and can be sealed appropriately.

Six of the yellow shortcans would be easily handled by the APB. As for performance, there are several DIY tachos out there for toy car motors - may be an idea and a fun little project for someone who likes soldering and fiddling. Anyone around Ammanford way spring to mind?

I meant that one of them is documented on SlotForum as being a bit iffy with digital chips and both RX42s are a little short on power compared to Scalextric standard cars. I have found that to be the case with my SCX NASCAR but a sample of 1 is hardly conclusive.

If the Scaleauto motor is close to standard Scalextric then go for it.

I don't know if the tacho will work - it shows top RPM with no load - and a lighter car will go faster than a heavier car with an identical motor. That's why I mentioned a Stig - one driver driving all cars to get the best from them. And somebody else to try the Stig's own car to make sure he isn't holding back with it!!!

QUOTE (montoya1 @ 3 Aug 2012, 15:46) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>I always like to look at any threads where 'new' classes are discussed, on the basis one can never tell when an idea might work in HO, but this interested me:

Surely if the list of allowed cars is done well, anything 'too fast' would be down to the skill of the driver, and his/her tuning skills and/or car selection? A tweak down would therefore be grossly unfair, and disincentivising.

There does seem to be a lot of thought given in our hobby along the lines of what to do about the ''problem'' of people being ''too fast''.

Whilst I agree to some extent with your sentiments I believe we have a different case at this club. Over half of the membership of this brand new club are novices that own a single car and don't even bring a toolkit with them to club nights. Allowing free range on tuning and tweaking would quickly discourage them. We will have open classses where anything goes - BUT the digital APB will NOT handle cars drawing more than 1.5 amps each and a current draw much above that fries the chips anyway so that is a limiting factor.

Do you race digital? If so you will know that racing digital with a sophisticated program like SSDC allows fuel simulation etc. and so strategy is more important than top speed. I often win races with fastest lap times 5% slower than the fastest BUT the speed demons haven't sussed the subtleties of pit strategies and the exponential rate of fuel burn between 3/4 and full throttle.

Our best racing comes with cars that lap within 0.3 seconds of each other on an 8 second lap over 30 laps and with fuel simulation (meaning 1 or 2 pit stops). If a car lapped 2 seconds quicker most of our members would not be able to tune their cars to suit and would probably get very demoralised. To compete would mean reaching for the credit card and giving it a bashing. I can guard against that by using SSDC's power increments to keep the top speeds as equal as possible.

The winners will then come from those who can get their cars to handle better and who are better drivers (as opposed to richer drivers).

Once the general mechanical ability of our members has risen to tuning and tweaking we will raise the bar by having a couple of open classes and using the Slot.It chips to up the power levels. But that will be when our members are ready to blow £100 on a car and bits rather than £35 on a standard chipped car.

So yes I agree with you BUT I think I need to wait until the bulk of our club members have well and truly caught the slot car bug

 

[montoya1]

I have a better idea of what you are aiming for now, thank you.

To some degree you can mitigate against wallet-racing through your rules, but if somebody wanted to do a bit of blueprinting and/or moving weight around and/or improving their driving & tactics it would be a shame to squash that.

 

[Martyn_]

Your response to Montoya1 backs up using rxs, slow the cars down a bit and see who can handle the car the best.

How much fun are the NASCARS (magless) races? Not just who can get the biggest mag in a car, but who can eke the best lap out of a car that has to be finessed around the track.

The GT races are great fun, as are the LMPs, but why not think a bit outside the box and perhaps go for something a bit different that could help novices improve their car control?

 

[Mr Modifier]

American Muscle, any era - no magnets. Free choice of guide (no deep wood guides), braids, wheels and tyres (wheels to remain inside bodywork - no silicones).

We could keep stock motors - as far as I know nobody makes Muscle cars with muscle motors.

That's the starter for ten - feel free to offer opinions!

 

[Mr Modifier]

QUOTE (montoya1 @ 3 Aug 2012, 16:11) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>I have a better idea of what you are aiming for now, thank you.

To some degree you can mitigate against wallet-racing through your rules, but if somebody wanted to do a bit of blueprinting and/or moving weight around and/or improving their driving & tactics it would be a shame to squash that.

Oh yes - I agree absolutely.

My thoughts were to take the cars as they arrive out of the box and calibrate the motors in software. If people want to loosen screws half a turn, trim the chassis, and upgrade the braids then great - this is a good way to learn about tuning a car without blowing £50 on motor and running gear upgrades.

Any performance gains they make can be measured against the calibrated lap time so they can work out what works and what doesn't. Could be very interesting.

 

[montoya1]

Put like that it sounds very interesting. People are always looking for ways to equalize motors, and that is a new way.

 

[lee thorndike]

We run scalextric gt,lmp and ford taurus nacars also scx cot nascars with rx42b motors and american muscle.
The inline scalextric ford taurus nascars are easily the best class we run.
We fit ninco pro non suspention guides remove the magnets, fit scalextric sport tyres and saloon car chip.
The muscle cars havn't been run properly yet so will have more of an idea in a couple of weeks.
They are mostly pioneer chargers and mustangs so far.
Good to see your up and running now mr modifier.
Regards lee

 

[Michael363672]

Silicones and Non mag are the way to go for any class

I like the LeMans with LMP & GT class running together

But saying that all our classes are very close

Also on speed you won't need to change motors to get more speed
I took miles of the Oval lap record last time with a standard scaled motor and chip
Even faster than my slot.it orange can motor group c car with slot.it chip

On the motors if you can't get to top speed by 2/3rds of the way down the straight then changing it won't make much difference

Michael

Dean. Pop down and give it go Thursday on e GT track

 

[montoya1]

Thursdays I race at HONK now Mich.

 

[Abarth Mike]

My vote would go to non magnet NASCAR. But that might spawn two classes Scaley and SCX.

Lots of scope for tweaking and/or fine tuning with scaley.

Forget the 1:1 car's stereotype and US heritage for slot cars they offer good fun and close racing.

 

[Mr Modifier]

Thanks for your input guys.

The Amman Valley Raceway has a set of magless NASCARs running homebrew urethane rears and they are great fun to drive and offer close racing. Standard guides - but they seem to hang on quite well.

These are my own cars and I am happy to lend them (along with the Amman Valley Raceway) to the club for occasional races until we build up enough classes and get our own track built. Getting the guys to go down this route rather than come up with another class to add more variety sort of smacks of "it's my ball and I'm taking it home!" and that's not the case as the guys do treat my cars with respect.

The NASCARs are in-line.

Adding American Muscle would add a magless sidewinder (or mainly sidewinder) class which could be very interesting.

 

[Mr Modifier]

Second class is now settled!

Due to a timely bargain offer from a dealer and some swift decisions from all racers we now have a class based on Ninco 1 American Muscle.

As the motors are slightly less powerful than the GTs we run - this class will run WITHOUT magnets.

As everybody will have the same spec cars this should make for some very close racing.

Fettling is to be encouraged so we can all learn how to make our cars handle better.

Can I suggest we all be honest and run the first race series completely unmodified (apart from magnets removed) so we can set benchmarks for our cars. This will allow us to fully appreciate the performance gains to be had from making adjustments.

I suggest we apply the following rules (AFTER THE FIRST SERIES OF RACES WHICH WILL BE RUN STRAIGHT OUT OF THE BOX but WITHOUT MAGNETS)

Allowed modifications:
• Light trimming of the chassis to allow free movement of the body should you wish to loosen screws. If you take too much off in an attempt to reduce weight - your car will be banned. You should not need to sand more than 1 or 2mm off the edges.
• Weight may be added inside the body only. No lead. You can use anything non poisonous and non-magnetic to add weight.
• Axle bearings may be changed.
• Any type of braid may be used.
• Rear tyres may be treated with mineral oil only (3-in-one or similar) but must be dry when placed on the track. Hallucinogenics and goop are banned you hippies!
• Front tyres may be treated to make them "zero grip" but they must not leave residue on the track.
• All tyres may be glued and trued.
• Wheels may be trued and flashing removed.
• Paint jobs and decorative personalisation are encouraged.
• Motors and axle bearings may be glued.
• Front axles may be adjusted for height BUT both front wheels MUST touch the track on straights.

Traction magnets MUST be removed.

Things that must not change:
• Guides must remain standard
• Pinions, gears, axles, wheels and tyres must remain standard.
• Motor must remain standard and must NOT be opened under any circumstances.

Tyres:
I am happy to take moulds and make tyres for these cars if we want to agree on this as a club standard. I can make some test tyres so you can see if you like them (who knows - the Ninco standard rubber may be better). It's your shout gents.

What I am hoping we can achieve with this is a shared understanding of what can be done to a car to make it competitive without having to bash our wallets. Running without magnets exposes the flaws in a car and as we all have basically the same car and a limited number of things we can do - it should be quite an interesting series.

Race format:
May I suggest we alternate between Grand Prix and Endurance formats? We can vary numbers of laps and duration.

If this works we may feel it worthwhile applying the same rules to our GTs but WITH magnets. Not yet though - let's see if it is worth it first.

Cars are arriving in time for our next club night on the 22nd August. I am planning to chip the cars for you "live" at club night so those of you who haven't chipped a car can see how straightforward it is.

So 22nd August is probably going to be a "get to know your new car" night - hopefully with some races at the end to set the benchmarks.

We have a mix of modern Mustangs and Camaros (and one rogue Corvette). As there are only 6 different cars and 8 of us there is some duplication but 3 of these are the white Camaro SSX - Rob, Ryan and me. Rob is intending to relivery and so am I so we should end up with 8 easily identifiable cars.

We have access to a few more of these (duplicates I'm afraid) in anticipation of more members. So I am running a thread on SlotForum asking for advice on tampo and paint removal on Nincos.

I'm looking forward to this series!

 

[Martyn_]

Looking good Rich, I'll put my vote in for handout tyres (though we WILL pay you for them).

REf guide, we may have to think again, as I've had to trim a "v" into the leading edge of one or two Ninco guides to get through my XLCs. Don't want to knacker the track!

Can't wait to get them out of the box and have a race.

 

[Mr Modifier]

Hi Snurfen,

Thanks for the heads up on the guides. Are you coming on the 22nd? Could you show us how to trim them?

R

 

[Martyn_]

I'll be there, hopefullyu with Dai and Nick.
It's just drag a bit of wet and dry boliquely from frnt to back along the leading edge of the guide.