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Gary Skipp
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Hi everyone

Mick's post in the other thread exlaining about the 1972 and 1976 cut-off dates made me think about what a 'classic' racing car actually is.

I'm obviously one of the younger participants in CSCRA events, but personally speaking theres a whole load of cars between 1972 and the present day that I would consider to be classic cars that seemingly have nowhere to race unless your local club has a niche slot for them (none of mine do).

As an example only, Group C sports prototypes have to be classic cars by now, do they not? An example only, mind, because Slot.it have done a pretty good job tidying up that particular plateau of car and many clubs do run a class for these as RTRs.

Mick mentioned that Grp 5 saloons were discouraged from the current regulations. Fine, they don't fit with the other cars. But why not race them seperately? Who wants to argue that a Grp 5 saloon is not a classic car?

In the 1:1 racing world, the 2009 Silverstone Classic held a race for Supertouring saloon cars from the early 1990's. They're pretty new compared to Cortinas, but I'd see no reason why they can't be considered classic cars. They are 20 years old now, after all. The North London rules weren't written yesterday, perhaps its time to consider the 'newer' classic cars when it comes to establishing standards or running events.

Mick also mentioned that that some people felt there are too many classes allready. What is the background behind this, please? Surely it is up to the event organiser to pick the class he wants to run (or not, ie Wolves do their own thing). There is no obligation to run every class at your event, so what does it matter how many there are?
 

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Excellent Gary!
I have thought for some time we need to talk through the whole 'Classic' structure.
A long time ago, when I was quite a young member of the Vintage Motorcycle Club, they had a rolling 'Post Vintage' section that allowed all machines into the club at their 25th birthday. The Vintage and Veteran sections were set dates, so did not alter.
It seems you could argue for a similar policy to cover Slot car race classes, but does that mean one body (CSCRA) should be responsible for defining what models qualify and in which class or catorgory they fit??
One of the problems that the CSCRA class year range avoided (until very recently) was the fact you could not run an 'out of the Box' tuned up slightly Slot It model, because group 'C' models are to late to qualify. This may now come under pressure due to NSR making reasonable 'Scale' early GT models that do qualify for the later GT class of CSCRA rules.
It has always been OK to use an HRS under a suitable body, but as soon as a very near standard model with a motor upgrade can make most of the scratch builds look ordinary...why bother scratchbuilding?.
Any year range over about 15 years old could be descibed by someone as 'Classic' but I don't think one body or group should have to lay down rules to take into account all of the models and classes that would bring into play.
Cheers Bill.
 

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I'm not sure whether the original 70s cut-off dates that we inherited from North London were down to baby boomers of a certain age holding those dates as the tipping point past which motorsport all went a bit wrong, an intention to cut out cars that were regarded as somehow "modern" (the original NL rules actually date from the early to mid 80s so I can see how a car that was less than ten years old at that point was not wanted) or tied to a date past which slotracing dipped in popularity.

Gary is younger than me so my personal list of retro cars must be a good dozen or so years older than his. I struggle to see early 90s cars as retro, but to fair I came of age in the early 90s and struggle to acknowledge that nearly two decades have passed since. Group B is the arbitary point in my past whereby I feel everything before was classic, everything after modern.

I don't see that we have too many classes and struggle to see where we'd fit more in TBH, although I do personally feel 70s F1 is the big one that's missing from what we cover. All those lovely 13mm wide Scalextric superslix!

I don't think Mick is suggesting that Gp.5 saloons are not classic cars, but just facing up to the fact that if a Zakspeed Capri fitted within the dimensions and period window, meetings would be half full of them and not the cars that still resemble road cars which the original intention was to have a race of.

However - important point I feel - all the CSCRA regs are just starting points. There is nothing to stop any club running a CSCRA race for Group 5 saloons under Sports Cars rules in the same way that the Sports class can be tweaked for a meeting to say "just Le Mans" or similar.
 

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QUOTE (Hobby @ 16 Jul 2010, 17:14) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>It seems you could argue for a similar policy to cover Slot car race classes, but does that mean one body (CSCRA) should be responsible for defining what models qualify and in which class or catorgory they fit??

We pretty much do this already with the year cut-offs and to be honest we have to do this. Otherwise Gary would turn up to a saloon meet with his Renault Laguna claiming it's retro and I'd be saying "no, this Sierra Cossie is retro this French thing is from last Wednesday!"


QUOTE (Hobby @ 16 Jul 2010, 17:14) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>One of the problems that the CSCRA class year range avoided (until very recently) was the fact you could not run an 'out of the Box' tuned up slightly Slot It model, because group 'C' models are to late to qualify. This may now come under pressure due to NSR making reasonable 'Scale' early GT models that do qualify for the later GT class of CSCRA rules.
It has always been OK to use an HRS under a suitable body, but as soon as a very near standard model with a motor upgrade can make most of the scratch builds look ordinary...why bother scratchbuilding?.

The NSR Ford Mk IV and 917 have been out for a while and neither has suddenly sprang to the top of the "must have for CSCRA racing" pile, come to think of it the Slot.It Alfa and 312PB have been out even longer and they haven't. If these four cars were as fast as the top scratchbuilds (nobody seems to have proven me right or wrong here) then that would be great because it would close up the pack and make entry a lot easier for people, but then if it was all about getting the fastest car we wouldn't be building cars because they are charismatic and nobody would build silly little things for Wolves small saloon just "because it's there".

I'm sort of scratching my head here Bill to see exactly what the problem would be if a car from NSR or Slot.It or MBSlot or similar turned out to be competitive at CSCRA racing. I can't see for a minute that everyone would immediately switch over to those cars and the whole CSCRA scene morphs into a clone of the Slot.It challenge just where the only car used is the 956 as opposed to the Aston-Martin or McLaren or whatever it is that everybody is running now. If the CSCRA boys were of a mind to say "I'm not interested in the real prototype, just how fast this goes" then VECRA would never have got off the ground and the same people would be racing BSCRA and Slot.It Challenge instead. Bill, you've spent too long around those fast boys now get back in yer workshop and start polishing up some paint!


Coop
 

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Alan Tadd
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Nice thread Gary....
.

In the 1:1 World the term "Classic car" is not too well defined. Other terms such as Vintage or Veteren have specific construction dates which clearly define which group a specific car belongs to.

To try and define "Classic" a little better there are two taxation points that are used...1st January 1973. All cars built before this date do not pay road tax and written on their disc is "Historic vehicle". If you try and claim Company tax for a "Classic car" the Inland Revenue say it must be over 20 years old and worth more than £15,000.

There is another class of Classic car and this is the "Modern Classic", and this is applied to cars older than 15-20 years, in regards to anything which appears collectable...Ummmm.

So I would say the definitions could be 1) Classic Car - Up to 1973
2) Modern Classic - 1973-1990.

All open to discussion and could make an interesting new Racing class....

Regards

Alan
 

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That 1973 date was a rolling one though, designed so that any car over 25 years old was exempt from VED. Stopped at 1973 by New Labour before my TR7 qualified. (Bitter? Moi?)

To be honest, I suspect much of the interest in CSCRA/Wolves retro is simply because a lot of people in British slotcar racing like 50s and 60s racing cars and aren't as fussed by later ones. Arguments that "an XR3 is retro" won't hold as much water as "917s are retro" not matter what the cut-off year moves to.
 

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Gary Skipp
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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
QUOTE (Coopdevil @ 16 Jul 2010, 17:46) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>To be honest, I suspect much of the interest in CSCRA/Wolves retro is simply because a lot of people in British slotcar racing like 50s and 60s racing cars and aren't as fussed by later ones. Arguments that "an XR3 is retro" won't hold as much water as "917s are retro" not matter what the cut-off year moves to.

Undoubtedly so. But without being grim, this won't be the case forever.

Thanks for the replies so far, guys. I think Owen you make the very good point that the CSCRA standards are to be viewed as guidlines and adapted to whatever one pleases. Perhaps taking this view would avoid the whole pub argument which may follow, but until somebody taks the inititive to do something with them then I will still feel a little lost when looking at some of the cars on my shelf.

I'd put on my own event, indeed have thought about it many many times, but the fact is that there is allready enough slotracing out there. In the last couple of years especially it has boomed, I don't particularly want to fight for a spot on the calander and rob everybodies wives of another one of those toy car weekends. That said I've seen my friends around me do it successfully so perhaps it isn't as difficult as it may appear.

Lets see what some of the crowd have to say over the next few days.
 

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Ey Up,

just as an aside Coops, I am in the same boat tax-wise with my 1974 MGB V8 Roadster !!.

Bl**dy Labour party !!??.

I am not sure that "Trabby" would appreciate the epiphet "silly little thing", especially as he was banned (effectively) for being too quick !!.

1970's F1, I agree.

vbr Chris A.
 

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David Collins
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The definition of 'Classic' has got a lot to do with the time the original rules were set, the age of many of our competitors, and the cars we like. But there's no reason we couldn't add to that.

I would be in favour of Group C and Group 5 classes, and more modern F1 class. It does mean that we have more classes, but an event organiser is just going to choose one or two, and who knows, it may bring more or maybe younger competitors who connect more with the racing of the '70s and '80s.

David
 

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Coop.
All fair comment.
The Slot It Ferrari and Alfa models have been around for a while, but we have had very few meetings for this later class of CSCRA Sports/GT events to use them. It is also very obvious, these little models are scale correct and so...little!
The recent excellent Yorkley meeting held at Mike Wall's home, gave me the opportunity to run the NSR mk4 Ford model.
It was one of the swiftest cars around that track, and there were some of the best Scratchbuilt models pesent!
It is not exact scale, but quite close enough to most peoples eye to pass as a reasonable model. It fits all the dimensional rules of the CSCRA Class, and is out of the box extremely quick. Very well suited to smaller tracks as is, but could be easily modified to cope with the quicker gloss circuits. I take your point that few of the current regular CSCRA 'Gentlemen' will ditch their brass chassis, but we have to hope we can get a few more regulars to these events, some of them will have no model building background, and if an RTR car is quicker than anything they could ever build... as per my first post...why bother?
This won't be a 'problem' short term because, frankly, we are not getting the turn out to let any of this worry us!!
Regards Bill.
 

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Phil Smith
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If the Donington event goes ahead next year (at the moment it looks like it won't
) then there was talk of running the 1.5L Turbo F1 era cars in the Grand Prix Challenge.
There are loads of bodies for these made by both the UK and Spanish Scalextric companies and a few MRRC ones and others so it would be very feasable.
I'd also like to see CSCRA move forward with it's cut-off dates to include other Classics, including Group C sportscars.
 

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The basic idea behind CSCRA standards and the VECRA ones before them was to be able to run a car at more than one meeting.

So in terms of the prototypes modelled, Classic is whatever we (whoever that may be) choose it to be. There is no problem with extending the classes to the present day if we wish, but they need to be grouped historically as cars that ran together, looked the same and will perform in similar manner when built as slot cars. The current CSCRA F1 classes do this quite well, stopping at 1976 just before the advent of wing cars with big side pods. Big side pods add a lot more space to build a better slot car chassis and the wheelbases got bigger and bigger. I am not sure, without a lot of discusion and research, how and why F1 can be divided in historical groups between 1976 and 2010.

But we also mean Classic to mean "a lot more scale than BSCRA", hard bodies, rubber tyres and guides not visible from above. It means some careful consideration of the diameter and width of wheels to balance performance within a historic group with appearance. We have all no doubt read the discussion about the changing widths of tyres during the 1.5litre period. As long as these principles apply extending the classes cars we run into more modern periods would be fine.
 
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