This is what I said when I first heard of digital racing.

It's like a blue flag waving over the slower guy in real racing.

But everyone said "The faster driver should be good enough to overtake the slower car anyway". My subtle response was "The faster guy has already proved he's faster by making a lap up on the other guy, so the slower one should pull over"

No-one listened and virtually everyone agreed to make the faster guy go out of his way. Why are the fast guys always being discriminated against?

Andy

PS. Rant, rant, rant.

 

Theres a certain similarity to RC car racing. During qualifying heats we race against the clock so its pointless to hold people up.

However, during the finals we are against each other but there is a snag. If two cars are fighting it out and the fight looks like its going to end in tears, its not uncommon to allow the faster car past.

The thinking is, if you carry on fighting and take each other out, theres the potential to lose out to the person behind you or pick up a penalty if the move is considered bad by the ref.

 

It's an amusing thought that this problem simply doesn't arise in good old fashioned, 1 car per lane, slot racing. Possibly the major reason why the format has endured so very well for the last 40 odd years?

 

In non magnet analogue racing it's quite common for a faster car to be held up behind a slower car due the slower car sliding (running wide). I have had this experience numerous time racing both 1/32 and 1/24 scales.

Not so common in rear bar magnet type racing on Carrera or Ninco due to the extra lane width...

Same deal, does the slower car yield and they both continue on their merry way or risk a clash.

I wonder if the digital systems will ever be smart enough to have a blue flag function/penalty like in F1?

We have raced 6 up a few times on digital (it's a blast) and personally I have experienced both slower drivers who get out of the way and others who make you work for it

Myself, I sometimes choose to make room depending on who's rounding me up and their pace/strengths

One driver had a faster car in some races and just barged his way thru punting others off at the end of the straights, we just decided it was best to let him thru

as it was all about fun...

Perhaps as in RC, serious Digi racers may need marshalls to also act as refs?

Then again most marshalls always try to get the innocent party going again first if it does end in tears

 

The solution has already been found!

Watch the kids when they race/play on digital.

If your slower, or avialable at the end of the straight they will use you as a brake, clip you on the cross overs or find any other way of nerfing you off. Deriving as much pleasure and hilarity from the 57th successful attack/racing incident as the 1st one.

Highly frustrating though.

Cheers

BSN

 

QUOTE This may actually work better than having the fast car try to change lanes to get around.

What?

[Basil Fawlty]
Are you completely deranged?

[/Basil Fawlty]

Pray enlighten me, what was the damn point in the manufacturers busting their collective guts to shoehorn this functionality into a proven and perfectly good concept (thus jacking up the entry price) if you are only going to start moving over for folks?

Show some grit, take the bull by the horns, dig deep, separate the men from the boys and show us your skills. Go on, overtake the muppet.

You bought digital so you could overtake? Didn't you?

I keep re-reading it. I can't believe what I'm reading.

If you are going to start waving blue flags all the time then you have taken it way too far. Way too far.

 

He he!
I just LOVE that Wankel guy!
Literally laughing out loud - I will crawl to my pit, happy, tonight!

 

We had - in LMCD - a discussion about the blue flag!
Should a car pull over for leading car which is lapping the car?
How do you keep track of how is in the lead, who is lapping who and so on?
We desided that it is up to the leading guy to overtake where there is no risk of getting deslotted by a slower car - mind you, we do NOT race digital!

 

Yeah, I agree with Wankel...

Screw the blue flag, I think those Minardi's and Midland's should just stick on the racing line and make the other guys overtake them when they are lapping them. I too think it shows grit if MS or KR gets punted off the road buy some twat who can't drive and pays to be in F1. Good thinking Wankel....

Andy

[/end sarcastic rant]

 

?

Andy, I said nothing about the real world, I'm referring to the little 1:32 one we all sometimes inhabit.

Mind, since you mention it, yes, I think if you've got the car and the nous to pedal it fast enough to catch up with the tail-end Charlies, the likes of Schumacher should be quite capable of dispatching them. And if he can't, it gives others a chance to catch him up.

It is called racing. To me that means you are racing everyone brave enough to step up to the plate and you don't stop racing them just because you have proved capable of putting a lap on them.

There should be an etiquette, of course.

Back on thread, darainbow's post suggests that he has encountered log-jams, and frustration with same in this brave new world of digital racing.

[Windsor Davies]
Oh, dear. What a shame. Never mind.
[/Windsor Davies]

Maybe digital requires more lanes?

 

"It is called racing. To me that means you are racing everyone brave enough to step up to the plate and you don't stop racing them just because you have proved capable of putting a lap on them."

Right on the money Wankel. Nothing feel's greater then over taking a fellow racer or scaring him off of your lane. I must admit that I am guilty of knocking a car or 2 off the track down a long straight into a turn last time I raced. That's were etiquette should come in but I guess he could of moved out of my way too.

One of the funnest moments I had last race was drafting behind the lead car, waiting for him to screw up or the right moment to overtake him, sometimes screwing up myself and wiping out in a turn as I watched him pull away....

So what's the best penalty for knocking someone off from behind?

I think LC crashes should just be part of the territory but intentional ramming from behind should be addressed. Not that Dale E. ever did such a thing...

 

Doesn't it all become complicated!

Here's another way to look at it, full-size . . .
Position 1 has no cars in front of him, EVER, unless he manages to catch the tailenders. If he does, then he has already had a totally clear run (possibly baulking the cars behind HIM!) without having to pass anyone at all. So WHY on earth should the first car he comes across move over for him? He has already had INarguably the easiest run of anyone on the track, why make it even easier still? What sort of competitive 'racing ' is that?

In 1/32, for all the talk of realism, it is actually very little like the real thing in that there is NO possibility of the guy in front weaving to baulk the guy behind him. Either they are both in exactly the same lane or they are both in completely separate lanes. The only exception is when one of them is actually ON the Lane Changer and, when on an LC, there is NO possibility of changing mind about the lane change and, therefore, no weaving back and forth!

Sorry, but it just isn't the same as full size racing.
That is not to knock it, just to point out a distinct difference.

 

Wankel,
I havent had problems with logjams yet. The people I drive with are still beginners and are lucky to make it around the track ten times without deslotting. We dont race yet, just drive and try to beat our best lap times.

My suggestion is to give this a try.

This is actually more fun for the inexperienced drivers because they get to change lanes and it "simulates" real track driving sessions where faster drivers are waved by, so I have no problem with it.

When I can get an experienced group that actually races I'll let you know how this works out in a race.

 

Remember in the days of F1 when Mansel and Senna used to have to over take every body every new lap. A lot better for the viewer and more exciting for the drivers.

F1 these days is like baby racing, bring back competitive over taking every lap and have competitive over taking in digital slot cars, more fun and makes it a lot harder.

 

Its best to give digital a try as suggested by darainbow. To me it does not seem valid to make a judgement or to comment unless you have your own digital set and some experience.

Its like a console gamer who plays Gran Tourismo advising Michael Schumacher how win a Grand Prix!

Alan

 

Call me an old fool if you like - many have - but I was taught manners from a very early age and I still give up my seat on public transport to those in more need.

Slot racing is no different - if you are being lapped, particularly by two people fighting for the lead, it is only polite to ease up a little and let them past. You generally find the courtesy is returned when the boot is on the other foot.

What exactly do you gain by ruining somebody else's race when you are already a lap down?

I race to win just like most people but I don't have a problem if I am beaten fair and square. Thankfully most people at our club have the same attitude so our club nights are rarely punctuated by arguments - not the same at all clubs I understand.

Brian

 

QUOTE Its like a console gamer who plays Gran Tourismo advising Michael Schumacher how win a Grand Prix!
It's bar room philosophy, nothing more.

My personal opinion, based on no great experience but having tasted SCX and Scalextric product, is that it is crap. Granted, both set ups that I tried were on small circuits and I am used to the wide sweeps of a club six laner but on both occasions the likelihood of a crash was far in excess of traditional slot racing.

That may well be down to lack of experience and track time but I couldn't be bothered to try and master it. It immediately added a layer of complication and threatened more frustration.

What I like about slot racing is that it is a pure distillation of the sport I love. No complications, just racing. No weather, no punctures, no pitstop strategies, no oil flags or blue flags - one on one 'til the race is run.

Try digital by all means but not at your own expense, don't commit yourself to an expensive set and cars - it may suit you down to the ground but you might also get stuck with an expensive lemon. It's an opinion.

 

Wankel,

Small darty tracks do not really showcase what is possible with digital. My track has large sweeping carrera radius so it feels much like a club track even though it is 2 lanes. And we run at 16V so the cars are fast.

The most amazing thing about digital is the sense of interaction. You get the "rubber band" effect of real racing. In analog all the cars are in their own little world. In digital, because the cars are racing on very similar lines, they will duel for many laps and they appear to be racing. In analog, the cars just do not appear to be racing in the same way.

There is actually alot less lane changing than I originally expected.

What it comes down to is if other drivers are going to be polite or if they are jerks. Yes the potential exists to block other cars, but typically in our racing, as a car approaches from behind, one driver will make an "adjustment" so that his car is in a differnt lane and then the rest comes down to who drives best. It may take several laps to complete a pass.

And when the cars are evenly matched, there is quite a bit of time for a driver to make an adjustment. When you are 20 feet back you know if you need to change lanes to pass the next car. It might be 3 laps before you finally catch up, so you have time to change lanes. And the rest is just old fashioned slot racing.

I am introducing people slowly to the group and making sure everyone knows what they are doing, but with spec cars and drivers who know the track, there are few crashes and it is better than analog in every way. I imagine a darty track piloted by six children at a toy fair would be a differnt experience.

 

QUOTE (darainbow @ 26 Feb 2005, 08:07)There is actually alot less lane changing than I originally expected.
<snip>
It may take several laps to complete a pass.That is also my experience ... we normally take 3 to 4 laps to make a pass (unless somebody makes a mistake).

On my track the one lane is aproximately one tenth of a second faster per lap than the other, and you often need to switch to the "slow" lane to pass somebody. This way you have to have a small speed overhead to make a pass, or if you are very evenly matched, you'll have to apply some pressure, and wait for a mistake.

The two lanes have their separate advantages in different sections of the track, but on my track you need to get at least 30cm ahead before you can switch in front of the car you just passed. That's because all my lane changes move from outside to inside lane, and you need to slow down a little bit more to take the lane change.

 

The other point to make is that any situation where one or more cars are trying to pass another (whether for position or to lap them) never seems to last very long; one of you will de-slot, or you will all arrive at the scene of someone else's accident, or catch up with yet another car, etc., which usually breaks up any stalemate. Having trialled various rules and guidelines for courtesy, lapping, and overtaking the only one that really makes sense is "be patient" - if you are truly a better digital driver (that means not just quick but tactically-aware and forward-thinking) than the person driving the car in front, you will soon find a way past. And make up any time you lost if you were being held up by a tailender.

 

It's very interesting to see the various attitudes to 'manners' and 'politeness'.

Is there room for these in competitive RACING though?
Is giving up your seat on a bus to someone whom you personally judge to be in 'more need', actually comparable with competitive racing, whose actual primary purpose is to WIN. If the purpose is simply to have fun, without the spur of aiming to win, then it really isn't racing at all!
That is not a criticism.
Just acceptance that these are two very different things, both valid, but not comparable, imho.
Possibly the polar opposites of each other.

To follow the 'gentlemanly' line of reasoning through, suggests that, if your competitors have inferior cars, or are just plain slower drivers, you should cheerfully give up your track position,no matter what it is, because their need might well be judged to be greater!

Well, to be honest, in a 'fun' situation I am quite happy to do just that - in the interest of as many people enjoying themselves as possible.
But it ain't actually RACING.

I really can see both points of view.
Each undeniably has its merits and, as long as all participants agree to the particular 'rules' in a given situation, then this is probably the best that can be managed.

But can they agree?
The 'spirit' will always be subjective in definition. But even the most well-considered competitive racing rules always seem to be subject to interpretation - else there would NEVER be any disagreement over them. Furthermore, the judgemental enforcement of those interpretable rules is an incredibly unenviable task - certainly not one that I would want if I valued my slottist friendships.

Taking all into account, I can't think how we will EVER find agreement here!
But it makes for a lively disussion and that can be as much fun as racing, it would seem!

 

QUOTE Taking all into account, I don't think we will EVER see agreement here!

I suppose it really is the difference between the modern Senna/Schumacher attitude (let me through or choose to crash) and the Villeneuve (G) approach (I am the hardest racer around but, if you beat me into a corner, I will never pull over on you). I am from an older generation and I know which I prefer!

I know that what we do is not real motor racing but, in relation to the subject of this thread (manners when being lapped) I really don't see the point of being deliberately obstructive. I race as hard as I can but, if I am not on the pace for whatever reason, I will always ease off on a straight to let the faster guy lap me. It costs maybe a 1/10th of a second, we all stay friends and they don't stick me in the barriers when I am lapping them.

Brian

 

Brian
I personally think your position is a very fair balance - the problem being whether all the other participants feel exactly the same at a particular moment or incident in time.

Referring back to full-size stuff: it has been known for a back-marker to let through one of the leaders so enthusiastically that he completely failed to see the OTHER guy(s) behind and took them out instead!

Dammit - there really is no universal solution!

 

Its all about competitive racing. but people must remember slot car racing should be non contact. Race every lap hard and competitive but not smashing off all the cars around. Drivers should not be forced to pull over, however its there choose if they decide to do so only ever if being lapped.

Unless racing stockcars, which are a lot stronger.

Any contact with F1 slotcars on digital will damage both cars knocking both drivers out and leading to 3rd pace driver winning. After a some DNF all drivers will soon race trying to not contact but racing every lap.

Also competitive racing every lap gives new less experienced drivers more racing and thinking skills, due giving them some excitement each lap. It becomes more about thinking than the guy with the most money ( Fastest car) that wins all the time.

 

I have read with interest the points above and like many discussion points on this forum there is very little agreement. It is not a case of right or wrong because we are all involved in different racing/hobby situations and approach the same hobby in may different ways.

I began reading this without comment because it appeared to be specific to Digital. At this thread continues it would appear that the issue involves racing in general.

My view, based on what we do at Phoenix, is about sportsmanship,selflessness and mutual respect for other peoples property. I may be accused of taking this all too seriously, but put into the context of club racing, this is what we do. Any racer that is being lapped is placed under a blue flag. This means as Race Controller I will call "Blue flag !" on your car, over the PA and at the same time the flashing blue light in front of the racers is switched on. If the car slows up (Brian is spot on,i t takes very little time) then no problem and that is very much appreciated by the faster racer which in turn leads to a friendly relationship between club members. If the car that is blue flagged does not pull over then I deliver a 5 second Stop/Go penalty by cutting the lane power to that offender. A semi humorous bollocking is also normally attached. Not once at the highest level of our club racing have I had to do this, not once. I have with the beginner levels of our club meets until they are educated.

It is not funny to knock off a leading car and cause damage. It`s just common sense and a gentlemanly thing to do. Many clubs claim that they are poorly supported. Well, perhaps more than a few racers get fed up with travelling long distances each week only to get knocked off WHILST LEADING and see that their championship chances are greatly reduced. It takes commitment to race regular at a club, why on earth would you want to see a whole seasons attendance scrapped because someone has not got the self discipline and thought for others to just give way WHEN YOU ARE BEING LAPPED.

There is no right or wrong but there is a standard. It applies to everything you do in your life. It may be trendy to be a selfish, self interested individual , with no self discipline, but not at our club. If you want to play `bumper cars`then go to the fair.